Behavioral Data, AI, and the Rise of Robots: What’s Next?

Check out the full episode below! Enjoy the Exchange? Don't forget to tune in live every Friday at 12 pm EST on the Greenbook LinkedIn and Youtube Channel!

Lenny Murphy and William Leach discuss key industry leadership changes signaling growth, emphasizing the need for operational excellence to maximize investments. They highlight the launch of Behavix, a new data marketplace democratizing access to behavioral data, empowering researchers beyond the Fortune 100.

The episode also explores the mental health implications of increasing reliance on robots, including potential anxiety and depression. It wraps up with a look at the future of AI, its growing role in daily life, and concerns over protecting intellectual property in the digital age.

Many thanks to our producer, Karley Dartouzos. 

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Transcript 

Lenny Murphy: All right, and we are live. All right, this is gonna be fun. Welcome everybody. Karen is at a wedding, I believe. So we roped in our good buddy, Will Leach to go host. Will, welcome.

Will Leach: Hey, thank you very much for having me Lenny. I appreciate it. I have not done a podcast in the research space for a while. So I'm looking forward to it's gonna be fun to bat around some ideas and talk about all things inside. It's gonna be a good time.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah, absolutely. Now, we'll be buddies for a long time. He's just one of the coolest people that I know, he does lots of stuff with a green book. But we'll, why don't you tell the audience real quick about you. Overall.

Will Leach: Yeah, I am a research guru, fan, nerd, all those things. Grew up in the industry on the client side. I started my own company called Mindstate Group about a decade ago. In fact, Lenny, if you believe it, more than a decade ago, about 12 years ago, after running Insights, a couple of different functions at PepsiCo. So I'm in the behavioral sciences space, you guys. Study behavioral economics. I have a book on behavioral economics and behavioral sciences. And so in my head I am always thinking about how human emotion influences decision-making. So that is my world. I work with lots of different companies all over the world, just trying to help them understand why people do what they do.

Lenny Murphy: Yep. And if you have not read the book, that marketing to mind States, there's, there's a plug for you. Uh, uh, I have read it. I love it. It's a great book. So, uh, encourage everybody to do that, but I guess enough with those plugs. Um, let's, uh, let's dive in. We had a bunch of stuff this week. Um, and normally we don't do, well, let's, let's start out with kind of the appointments. Um, normally we don't talk so much about, you know, hiring and decision-making, but there were a couple of pretty high profiles. Appointments this week that I thought were really indicative of the strategic aspect of where the industry is going. So why don't I just rattle those off real quick and then we can go forward. So first, Patrick Comer, who has been the chairman of Cint Group, has now assumed the CEO role. So congratulations to Patrick Comer. Then second, uh, Tim rag is the new, uh, CEO of humanity. Uh, so Camille Nikita, sorry, his, uh, stepped, uh, away. He's going to do some other stuff, uh, still on the board, uh, where Patrick, who comes from a long, illustrious career at a Cantor, um, and at Miller Brown, uh, is now assuming the global CEO role there. And then we saw Phil Ahad. Who is now the chief innovation officer at Pure Spectrum. Phil was most recently at Toluna. So here was my take. Tell me what you think. I read these. These were strategic signals. Companies that are preparing for next level growth and changes in their businesses. The, particularly, if you look at pure spectrum and scent, the challenges that have had with sample quality, etc, etc, in the marketplaces, there's lots of there's that, but then there's also the demand now for new, new data quality, for LLMs, etc, etc. I thought both those were like, they're prepping for this whole new world of data usage that doesn't have much to do necessarily with surveys, that would still be a piece of the business. And of course, the human aid, their private equity backers are coming near the end of their five-year cycle. So bringing in somebody like Tim, who has experience with M&A, successfully sold Holland Partners to Escalant, that my guess is that that was to help drive wherever happens next with them. So that was my take. What do you think? Yeah, Mr. Behavioral Scientist, are there deeper nuances to capture from here?

Will Leach: Well, you know, sometimes I look at these things as an entrepreneur, as I should, being an entrepreneur. And I think the signal it told me was that in the last couple of years, I believe we've been in this kind of fog of war. And you can make the case for the last four years, we've been in this fog of war where There's so much happening. It's volatile, uncertain, chaotic acquisitions, companies going broke, all this new technology coming in. I think what had to happen was about a year and a half, two years ago, companies that size had to put their stake in the ground. Now, we may not know exactly what that stake was, but my guess is they put the stake in the ground. They bought a lot of companies. Change brands, they're bringing in, they have different leaders to come and build out all this innovation. And the way I look at this is that these are big changes. And operational efficiency and excellence has to come now because they've made their investments. Now it's time to start paying off those investments. So as I looked at these, I mean, if you look at Patrick, I mean, the guy comes from a major operational excellence background, right? He's had big jobs before. He understands that company very well. So it made total sense they'd bring him in as a CEO to kind of integrate and kind of take the company from vision to excellence in operations so that you can do whatever you're gonna do with it, whether you're gonna sell it or whatever. So that was my take overall. I love the appointment on HumanAid. And the reason why is I am fascinated by this idea of, this idea of human insights, as you know, I would be. And I believe like material and probably human aid are, to me, the closest thing to what I envision as being like a behavioral science McKinsey, or they have the ability to become a behavioral science McKinsey. And it's something I've always been fascinated with, because I think there's a huge outage in consulting, research, data analytics, but from a human perspective. And the more AI is being used, at least from my clients, the largest clients out there are saying we're losing humanity. We're just losing our touch with people. And so I love, love, love the appointment of Tim in that because it to me, it feels like it's getting closer to getting all nine of these companies to again, operational efficiency, but I'm hoping it's going to be in the space of my dream of like human behavior excellence, if you will, and just bringing it out to the market. So I guess my only question is that one of the nine companies to integrate in the last couple of years is a tough job. That's why I think we need somebody like Tim who's come from Holland Partners, who's come from Kantar, who understands these big organizations. Again, operational efficiency, effectiveness, excellence. I keep thinking of excellence because that's what you're gonna have to do to get all the value out of all these acquisitions.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah, that makes perfect sense, man. I was not thinking at that pragmatic, you know, level. And as soon as you say it, like, yes, you know, these are big jobs across the board for everybody.

Will Leach: So yeah, it doesn't need to pay off soon. Really keep envisioning the future. You gotta start paying those off. And at least two out of the three make me believe Yeah, they're a little bit out of vision space. It's about getting profits out. Yep.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah, agreed. Well, especially since it's a public company, right? So yeah That's absolutely what drives them. So interesting times. I expect that we'll see see more of that then we had a whole slew of new product launches new company launches even a little bit of M&A news and the, and I think, let's start with, with the behavior, which was launched by Hannu Verkasalo and Sarath Chatterjee from Virto. And, you know, Virto was one of the early behavioral data collection platforms, passive data collection platforms, they sold to Disco. And now Honu's doubling down. But, but interesting, the model here appears to be that they're giving their tech to build a data marketplace, a behavioral data marketplace. This isn't about attitudinal data about surveys. No, this is about observational and passive monitoring. And Just think that is really really interesting. There's other companies that curious and and disco and m4 and you know, lots of other folks that that are playing in that space loose and I think the challenge always was we didn't know what to do with that type of data per se and Now I think we have a better sense of what to do with it because it damn sure can power AI training sets, for sure. Synthetic sample, et cetera, et cetera. So when you think about behavioral science, particularly, what's your take on the use case of behavioral data to help drive that human element in perspective?

Will Leach: Yeah, I have two perspectives, I guess. The first thing is I can remember being on stage I'm going to guess 10 to 12 years ago, I don't remember the conference I was at, but I'm pretty sure it was like four iterations of the head of insights for Procter and Gamble. I remember he was chief analytics officer. And I remember him saying that data will be democratized. And it was a big deal. It was a huge deal. They go, you only have to pay for data in the future. The data is going to be realized. It's going to be out there for everybody. And now, now you'll just have to make insights. And you sit in the back and you get excited in the audience. This is literally a decade ago, this idea of democratization of data. But yet I don't think it really materialized because you can't commercialize. I think it's hard to commercialize and frankly use. I think this was the first time when I read about this, I thought, okay, this is a nice step forward into the real democratization of data. I love their term. I'd never heard of it. Data as a service. That's a clear indication that they want everybody to have access to data. And they'll take it in and let it be free. I love this idea. So my first take is that this may actually be the first time that a company that maybe you're not in the top 100 fortune 100 companies, right? But maybe all those other companies and even suppliers like me will have access to behavioral data. Why that matters for me is without behavioral data, I'm in the world of I don't want to under sell this, but I pontificate a bit. Like I do good research. I hope I really understand human behavior, but ultimately it's very difficult for me to quantify using people to say what my, my informed opinion based upon insights and behavioral sciences, it's very difficult for me to prove the value. This allows somebody like me to see it actually translate out. And frankly, it makes me a better researcher because I can now gauge, you know, I used to think that this is what mattered. Right? I'm in behavioral sciences, but the data is telling me something different. Those worlds have been separated in my world forever. And so I had to hope that a client would tell me, Hey, your ideas really helped drive the business. It was a year and a half later when I got that, hopefully democratizing it where people like me can actually prove their value. So it's, it's, it's a great, great launch.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So there, uh, some overlaid a note again, our friends at Pure Spectrum, um, Introduced s to s secure Fighting survey fraud so today to quality play this whole concept of ghost completes Was a piece of that so that's on the heels of what I think last week talked about Forsta launching a similar product based on their platform so to your point Data is becoming increasingly important across the board. And even the tried and true survey, we need to have capabilities that are helping to ensure that that is the highest quality data. If we can't get that right, then how can we trust the behavioral data as well, right? We have to have trust in the data across the board. So glad to see companies taking that stuff seriously. Do you have any stories that you have at the cost of bad?

Will Leach: bad data Not you know, it's funny when I was using data in the in the UM in my days at Pepsi I can remember I won't name the sample company coming in and warning us now This was a decade ago warning us about sample quality and they kept talking about how our samples better and in back of my head I kept thinking And in fact, he said, we should be paying more for it. And me being the client, I know this is the frustration for sample companies. I was like, that's your problem to fix. That's not my problem to fix. You're supposed to have good quality data.

Lenny Murphy: Right.

Will Leach: I think of ourselves right now as fraud is the number one threat to our industry. It's not AI. It is fraud because it feels like it's been kind of secret for us researchers at clients teams. Like, you know, sometimes, yeah, we understand that maybe there's some bias in the data. We understand that. Yeah. But I think every time we do these political campaigns and when these forecasts don't come true, it becomes bigger to the C-suite. And my biggest fear for the industry is that day where a chief sales officer or a CEO says, I can't trust the data. And the day they lose trust in the data is when our And I used to think, well, we could get better at modeling or whatever. I think this stuff is such a big deal about combating fraud. So I did have very bad data, I'm sure many times, honestly. And I didn't know, or I didn't care, because I kept in my mind thinking, it's being handled. I'm so glad it's truly being handled. And that's really, I think, pushed by the sample companies, which is really cool. Because I don't get the sense it was really being drawn from the clients. I really think it was just like, we want to be better researchers and a better industry. And they're pushing that on us. It's really good to see that kind of innovation happening.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. And there's a through line through some of these other launches that we look at this week. The first connected four light AI. A small business program with free access to analytics tools for freelancers and micro-agency, so that's cool, for Qual data. I think that is certainly one of the things that we've seen change. Unlocked the scalability of qualitative research, but also qualitative data is harder to bullshit, it's hard to fake. The very nature of Qual has a bit of a fix for the data quality.

Will Leach: It's built-in fraud protection.

Lenny Murphy: To an extent, I mean, it's not foolproof, and we know there's people who game the system, but it's not as literal bots, right? The fraudsters are not quite that sophisticated yet. So I think as we see platforms like this that are now free, qualitative analysis platforms being launched out there is indicative of the increased use of Qual across the board. They recognize that, so that's cool. Let's run through these other ones real quick. Another visualization platform, Discover Reveals Hierarchical Topic Maps, AI to effectively look at unstructured data. StatSocial expanded their footprint with Databricks Marketplace. Databricks is purely in the kind of AI training set, enterprise level data management space. That is what, you're talking about big data, that's what they do. And this is a multi-billion dollar company. So now integrating that with social audience insights, it's an alternative data source, right? Yes. Really interesting. We're seeing that data synthesis occurs there. Similarly, HubSpot launched its free tool for AI discovery, which seems more like a secondary research tool. Bloomberg Terminal has integrated PolyMarket, which is a news analysis platform effectively to help predict market trends. And so I ran through all those really quickly, because in my mind, the through line was, data has been democratized, there's lots of ways to get to, to data that can address very specific use cases. And A lot of the silos of synthesizing and connecting those things are being brought down across the board and allowing more and more people to access the information, to access more and more information, and not just in the market research space. Within HubSpot, you could access tools that previously you would have necessarily would have gone externally or the Bloomberg, right? So that we're not the census of the data, but also the census of the data economy.

Will Leach: That was my- Yeah, I'll build on that. So I saw two things with those particular announcements. The first thing is that there is a blurring of verticals. That I never would have thought, but there is absolutely like to think to yourself that HubSpot could, I mean, when you look at it, when you read between the lines, you could make the case that HubSpot could help you become, it could help do your brand tracking for you on that announcement. They could. It's probably not too far. When you're doing sentiment analysis, awareness, things like that, that is typical brand tracking stuff. HubSpot is getting in that space. Bloomberg, same thing. When you're talking about predictive markets, that is about forecasting or they have the ability. First thing I thought was blurring of verticals. Where these large, massive companies are looking to monetize their expertise and their data to people like us in the research space, which also makes you make the case that perhaps maybe the research space should be moving into those areas as well and selling. So there should be a kind of community, I bet that we're going to see a way of communal, you know, building of these data sets. And then the second thing, what I took away from this is not just the blurring, But I kind of believe that we're going to start moving into a space, especially when we talk about AI, of, are you familiar with Shopify, right? So when I need something for my business, I don't go out and design or figure out how to, how to build it myself. I go to Shopify. And I just basically think if you guys don't know Shopify, it's like, it's like, it's almost going to an app store, but it's for small businesses. And I go, Oh, I need this. I need a chat bot. Oh, I, you know, I need this. I need telephone services. Oh, I need this. I need predictive analytics. I can go to Shopify and get what I need. In fact, at the project level, if I really want to. When I see all of this blurring of verticals, it makes me believe the problem with all this stuff is that it's going, there's so much that the end user doesn't know what to do with it. So those firms that can figure out how to bring all this stuff together are going to be useful, or a hub spot, or not a hub spot, like a Shopify ecosystem, I'm going to go to a website, and I'm going to go, you know what, I really need to know about social media, I'm going to go grab that API, bring it into my data set, okay, you know, I better, I better have really advanced forecasting. So let me bring in the Bloomberg thing. And I want to do predictive analytics. So there's, I think there's this ecosphere, I think that's going to have to be built to be able to allow the end user to just pick and choose what they need for that one particular project. And when I see things like this, I can envision that happening.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah, 100%. Right. Then, uh, agree with you. And, and I'm sure that, you know, there's companies out there, well, you know, Nielsen's marketing cloud Stagwell's marketing cloud. I mean, those are not just data assets. You know, there are, there are apps, so to speak. Um, uh, but companies like live ramp, you know, that make data accessible through, you know, one, um, One one platform. Yeah, so I agree. I'm sure that a lot of them are larger. I'm sure my friends are happy . Are they thinking that way? I mean that they're positioned and all of those platforms are similar to that. We're positioned to do that. So Interesting times to say the least There's actually I'll do a little plug to analyze the latest grit data this week and there's some evidence there that this is already happening. So at least in terms of how buyers think about things. Okay.

Will Leach: Because it's already happened. We're so used to it with our phones and building apps and things like that to make our phone optimized for what we need. I guess it's just human nature. We follow predictable things and we've already made that leap as a human level. And now we're just going, my TV has apps all over it that I can pick and choose and bring to TV stations. So yeah, why not? Why wouldn't it be?

Lenny Murphy: Yeah, absolutely. It just makes, just makes good sense. Um, I guess last, and that's actually where we move into all the AI all the time stuff to wrap up. The Quest Global Research Group acquired Coleman Insights. You know, Quest is kind of known as the sample company. Coleman Insights is primarily a kind of media measurement and tracking. So I see that as another synthesis play. This makes sense to kind of combine these assets. Coleman had been a client of Quest for a long time, I suspect, and unlocking more data, driving more value, having a better mousetrap to understand attribution, things like that. That was my reading. I think we'll see more things like that as well.

Will Leach: Yep, me too, yeah. Yep.

Lenny Murphy: All right, so there's a whole bunch of stuff on OpenAI. Um, so let's talk about this show. I know, I know, I know, but it's because you can't escape it. So, so the first one is just kind of, uh, kind of fun, but or not, depending upon how much you watch black mirror, uh, the, uh, uh, open AI or one of their subsidiaries, uh, launching, uh, a humanoid robot, um, Neo beta, um, It's built by One X, a company backed by OpenAI. They raised millions in funding. Just like that. Yeah, just like that, to build a household robot. It does cleaning, moving furniture, carrying objects, and pouring beverages. I mean, basically, it's, you know, you might as well call it Jeeves. So kind of your household butler. Only weighs 66 pounds. It can run 7.5 miles per hour. You know, so this- We're there. We're there. I mean, you know, Rosie the robot ran the flying cars, Jetsons era, we're finally getting there. And they're launching this year. I mean, they're putting robots- In people's homes.

Will Leach: That's right. This year.

Lenny Murphy: So- So, I mean, that's where all the, they said it, they said it two years ago, the goal of all of the AI training sets was to move towards robots. So, and Tesla is certainly doing similar stuff, taking all their self-driving car technology and all their, it's towards, what is it, Optimus, they call it, all moving towards robots. And what are the implications then, across the board. I mean, I certainly can think about it, it'd be cool to have a robot helper on the farm. Um, but, but then, you know, I saw maximum overdrive too many times as a kid, you know, great reference, but nobody will understand that.

Will Leach: Well, maybe some people in the show will understand that. I looked it up.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah.

Will Leach: Yeah.

Lenny Murphy: Uh, anyway, thoughts on what are the, what are the behavioral, what's, what are the broader behavioral implications for humans in, the, this massive potential adoption of, of like robots, real physical robots in our homes, working with us, doing stuff.

Will Leach: So my son just, uh, was starting to play a game called Detroit. Becoming human. And the concept of the game is that there are androids in society in Detroit, in this case, and it's kind of a choose your own adventure kind of deal and you're solving mysteries. But the story behind the scenes is that they look very similar to us. I mean, you could tell they're a little bit robotic by design, there's like a little blue chip. So so but there's this thing around, wait a minute, when androids gain consciousness in this in this in this, in this video game, Is there the desire from their point of view for mutual coexistence or violent rebellion? Here's why. Because humans, when they get these, they don't see robots and androids as being human, so they treat them very poorly. Hey, go clean up my crab. You're going to mop these floors. I'm going to punch you. I'm going to berate you because that's kind of human nature, I think. As this happens, you know, if there's ever any kind of, you know, we laugh about this, but if there's consciousness in the game, it's very much finally there's consciousness, like, I don't want to be treated like this. I don't want to be punched. I don't want to be abused verbally or whatever. And so in the game you're navigating that, but the big question to me is this as a behaviorist, I can tell you the easy thing is like, will they take our jobs? That's easy, okay. We can talk about that. I think there's a more societal thing we need to consider. So what is our purpose in life? If we have androids doing many of the things we don't like to do. So I get great satisfaction, Lenny, out of mowing my lawn. I don't necessarily like it, I get satisfaction. It brings me some feeling of completion or whatever. What happens when you have somebody who will be there 24 hours a day, who can mow your lawn, clean your clothes, wash the dishes, cook for your child, become your child's tutor, become your child's confidant? You see where we're going? What happens, I think, from a behavioral perspective is that we love to be lazy, everybody. It is a biological thing that happens to us.

Lenny Murphy: Look at Wally. I mean, that's where we're going.

Will Leach: For me to believe that, well, this will do all the stuff so I can be a better parent, what you will find is that people like, Yeah, I could talk to my kid about how they're feeling. Or I could watch football. And we will tend to entertain ourselves. I hate to say this as a parent, but we're self-natured. We just are. And so I think to myself, what becomes of our purpose in life when we actually start giving more and more of our purpose to robots? And then what does that say for us? Like, where do we find meaning? And so I'm not even talking about like, we're going to have to find better jobs. Like, I won't need a moving company, Lenny. I'll have my Android move my stuff for me. I don't need a handyman. So there's job implications. But I think there's this idea of purpose in life. And where we're gonna find purpose. And I think the more we kind of outsource to robots over time, the less purpose we're gonna have. We're gonna see a lot more depression, we're gonna see a lot more kinds of anxiety, things like that, because we're gonna lose our sense of humanness. And once you go down that path, it's hard to come back.

Lenny Murphy: I would say that. I agree. And so, shameless geek plugs here, right? If you have not read Isaac Asimov, particularly the iRobot series, Okay. Or the foundation and Empire books. I mean incredibly visionary and so far looking pretty damn, right? Oh, yeah the It explored these types of ideas, right but but even like, you know, Wally Introduced it by three kids who are now old enough that we watched the matrix with them last weekend. Yeah the And you know, this might be such a great fun movie from an action standpoint. There's some deep philosophical stuff and similar topics in that. And guys, here we are in the pragmatic aspects for us, to your point, it's not just mowing the lawn, but doing our shopping for us, right? Functioning as an agent, you know, in doing things as researchers, we want to understand, but now there's an intermediary.

Will Leach: Right? Perspective. Yeah. So who are we researching? Yeah. Yeah. Who's our customer?

Lenny Murphy: So, or we have, you know, Okay, I have my robot that's doing these functions for me. There's a research question. You know, it's programmed with my preferences. So do you need to talk to me? And he talked to the robot. So I mean, literally, maybe it may be an AI agent that exists on, you know, a piece of software, or maybe it actually is physically incarnated in a, you know, humanoid, right? Guys, here we are, because the $100 million invested just like that to do that. And that's a drop in the bucket compared to other pieces, other investments that are happening. That's just open AI. Yep. And let's, let's go on real quick because all that's part of open AI and now trying to raise, uh, do another raise with a hundred billion, a hundred billion valuation.

Will Leach: And they're not profitable yet, right?

Lenny Murphy: Uh, they are not.

Will Leach: They're not properly yet. They're still losing money in the billions, but they're still able to raise that kind of money. It's amazing.

Lenny Murphy: Absolutely. It's still projected to lose five billion by the end of the year. Their ARR surpassed three billion earlier this year, 200 million weekly active users of ChatGPT. But ChatGPT costs $700,000 a day to run. It's spending 8.5 billion on AI training and staffing. Now, so, great article, TechBuzz. Yeah, thank you, Karley. But it also went into their announcement of their next two programs. So, Strawberry. Which said it possessed superior reasoning capabilities in solving complex problems. So more thinking time for complex tasks. And I'm reading the piece here. It's part of their planned AI agents project, Orion, by automating multi-step tasks more effectively. So that's coming. So part of this valuation is what we have this coming, but then on top of that, they also announced GPT next. Um, and that's exponentially more powerful than its predecessor, GPT four, uh, the a hundred fold improvement in performance. So are they worth a hundred billion dollars? No valuation. I would argue probably yes, if these solutions do that and are aligned to specific business issues rather than just a kind of blanket, you know, oh, efficiency gains and all this cool stuff that everything does. And we're seeing that now develop where there's, you know, it is becoming the operating system for almost every technology out there that addresses very specific things. So anyway, thoughts on that.

Will Leach: I just think big companies, we gotta think to ourselves, when we see companies the size of OpenAI, NVIDIA, whatever, they are creating the future. Like a lot of us think we have to go figure out what the future is, what's happening. They are creating the future. Like if they invest in robots, Lenny, we're gonna have robots.

Lenny Murphy: Like it just- Right, right. Follow the money. I mean, we don't have a choice in the matter. That's what's happening. You don't.

Will Leach: And as researchers, we kind of know that. We look for trends or whatever. But when I was a researcher, we were looking for social trends. These social trends are actually being advanced by companies. These aren't societal trends. These are being advanced through technology. So I think it's important for us to recognize these are very clear indications of what our future is going to look like, And open AI, just like governments, just like countries, companies fall and collapse. But this company is gonna be here for a while, guys, and they're gonna set the agenda for what we're going to think is normal. And the artificial intelligence world, it is a fabric of our life. I don't even know how to describe it. It's not an industry. It's not gonna be an industry. It's not a tool. It's going to be in the fabric of our lives in every way possible. You have to see, I think you have to see that coming. Now, where it goes exactly, I don't know, but they're giving me pretty clear directions. I know for sure we have some robots coming up in our future. We have multi-agent systems coming up in our future. I do know, I can see that. And I can see a lot more collaboration in our future. So what that means to you personally, that's for you to figure out as a brand.

Lenny Murphy: Absolutely. And we've been harping on this, you know, Karen and I for the entire show to our audience, especially in the research space. The adoption is still relatively low. We can keep standing on the sidelines all we want. The train is still going. Period to your point and at some point we're just gonna have to jump on and deal with it First make personal choices. I don't think we're gonna buy robots to work here on the farm. That would be a personal choice, but my neighbor might well, they're Amish so they probably won't but yeah, I. But anyway, it's just all interesting. We're running over, you and I are worse than Karen with three more things that are related to this, and let's just touch on them real quick. So all this future we're talking about, there are still some systemic issues that have to be dealt with. The great article on the spectrum of AI's created a battle over web crawling that is effectively about access to data. That is the challenge here. A hundred time improvement on GPT-Next compared to four, that also has to have tons of more data to be able to drive that. Goes back to the very beginning of our conversation. There is immense opportunity for data democratization to help drive the further development of AI because we're running out of public data.

Will Leach: You have to feed the beast.

Lenny Murphy: Yes. And, and to put that in other perspectives, the Gartner report reveals that one third of generative AI initiatives may be abandoned due to high costs and challenges demonstrating value. So that's, that's a piece we have to start, you know, really putting the rubber to the road, and showing both efficiency and efficacy. And that's the push to do that's not going to go away. Too much money has been spent, we're not going to, it's not going to be abandoned, it's just going to be, we just have to get better at it. And then, in the UK, OpenAI appeals for copyright use, again, same thing, it's access to data. So lots of you know, complex issues that are rolling around in this, but none of those should be considered in my opinion. Uh, it's not going to stop the train. So, um, they're going to find out how to feed data.

Will Leach: We're just going to, they're going to figure it out because that is the whole. Reason for their being. So yeah, they're gonna figure that out. It's gonna be through legal, regulatory actions, or direct one-to-one. Like they're gonna come to us as individuals and say, we just wanna have access to things, to your thinking and your thoughts. And if you're a content creator out there, that could be really great for you. For me, like I think about that, I do a lot of my own content. That could be really, really good. The downside of this is the scary part. When I looked at the open AI appeals for copyright usage in the UK, I've had three people come to me And I do, they're younger. And what they've said is basically go, well, you know, they're asking me whether or not I could use my models to help do some analysis for them. And they go, but they made little comments like, well, you know, I could just, I could generate a prompt and do it myself. Lenny, that's scary for a person. I'm like, whoa, like you're talking about my IP. And you know what? It's true. They kind of can. Why? Because my IP is out on the internet. And so it's happening. So I kind of like the idea of the regulatory nature of trying to help save or help protect some of my IP and my thinking, so other people can't monetize it. And what I would tell you is that, especially the younger generation, they weren't being nefarious, Lenny.

Lenny Murphy: They weren't being mean.

Will Leach: It was just like, oh, I'll just go and get it. It's there. And I thought, wow, they don't realize what that means to me. So I love IP protection. I don't think it's going to save me for much longer. It's out there. I got a public book. I have public stuff out there all the time. Somebody will monetize. They'll call it the mind stat model, and they'll take it. It's done. So within a little bit of reason. So anyways, they will feed the beast. That data will be collected somehow.

Lenny Murphy: Yeah. All right. On that rosy view for the future, let's wrap up. Will, this has been fantastic. Love the perspective that you bring to this. Hopefully our audience has enjoyed that as well. Karley, we got a few plugs we need to make real quick as we head into fall conference season. Yep, there we go. Latin America, right around the corner. Literally this month, IIEX AI next month. And of course, we're already in full swing planning for IIEX North America in DC in the spring. Use the code exchange30 to get a 30% discount on general admission tickets to any of these events. That's it. We'll be back next week. Well, thanks, man. This was a blast. You're on the short list now. All right. Well, thanks for having me. It was a great conversation, Lenny. Now let's go off and read some of those books and watch some Black Mirror and feel even. No, I can't. I gave up on Black Mirror. It was too much. But I will go back and maybe read some of the classics by Isaac Asimov. But anyway. Have a great week. Don't watch the shows or see the movies. Read the books. Read the books. So read the books. All right, guys. Everybody take care. Bye. Thank you.

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