Can AI Deepen Human Insight? Rhiannon Price on the Evolution of Qualitative Research

In this episode of the CEO Series, Leonard Murphy sits down with Rhiannon Price, Senior Director at Simpson Carpenter, for a candid conversation about the future of qualitative research in the age of AI. From the rise of AI-powered moderators and continuous intelligence systems to the enduring value of empathy, intuition, and human connection, Rhiannon explores why the next era of insights may be more human, not less. The discussion also dives into innovation in research design, the changing psychology of consumers interacting with AI, and how researchers can navigate industry disruption with curiosity instead of fear.

Transcript

Leonard Murphy: Hello everybody. It's Lenny Murphy with another edition of the CEO series. Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to spend it with myself and my guest. And today it is my privilege to have Rianna Price. She is a senior director at Simpson Carpenter. Uh followed Rian for years. We've spoken a few times in the past. Um and just a delight and looking forward to the conversation. So Rhiannon, welcome.

Rhiannon Price: Thanks.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah, it's uh it's good to have you here.

Rhiannon Price: Lenny.

Leonard Murphy: So for those who don't know uh you want to kind of give your uh your origin

Rhiannon Price: Yes, absolutely. So yes, so as you mentioned, I'm now a senior director at Simpson Carpenter.
Leonard Murphy: story

Rhiannon Price: I guess I've been an insight practitioner for 22 years now. Um, and I'm afraid it's a it's a familiar tale of how I got into it. I completely fell into market research. I had no idea it was a career. And um, I know that's people of my generation, that's pretty much how how they got into it. But um, you know, I did the whole right of passage. I went traveling after university. I met a wonderful woman, Katherine Kohl's, on a boat in Vietnam who was a researcher. And she said, "You'd be great at my job." and I said, "Okay." Um, so I came home, went and did some work experience with her, which was fantastic. And then, yeah, and got my first job at Northstar Research and I stayed there for for 18 years. So, I sort of was a I was a bit of a lifer at at Northstar. Um, I sort of turned, you know, after sort of, you know, obviously a few years, I, you know, I sort of grew up there and ended up being part of the senior leadership team. There was three of us. And we sort of feel really proud of what we achieved there. I think we developed a really I mean it was an award-winning agency. It was great. Um and I think you know we had a great client roster. We had very unheard of staff retention. You know it was it was fantastic.

Leonard Murphy: 18 years.

Rhiannon Price: Um so so I feel yeah I feel really proud of of of what we achieved

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: There but unfortunately it got taken over. Um and so the one I had um when I was about to go on Matt leave for my youngest daughter in 2022, I made the decision to leave. Um and most most of the original team have now left. So um that's kind of what took me into market research in the first place. Um yeah, quite familiar

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yes. We we all fall into it.

Rhiannon Price: Story.

Leonard Murphy: The um uh but that's interesting. What So what was it about um uh what what was it that your your uh the lady that you met?

Rhiannon Price: Nothing

Leonard Murphy: I'm sorry I already I'm not fully caffeinated yet. Uh that you had met.

Rhiannon Price: Is technical. She's behind.

Leonard Murphy: Okay. Uh so what was it that Katherine saw in you based on your your

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Uh experience, personality, etc. that made her say, "Wait, you'd be a really great researcher. So what are those

Rhiannon Price: I think yeah,

Leonard Murphy: Traits?

Rhiannon Price: I don't one might think I really like talking or maybe I just like listening. I don't know. But I think I um I love I love people as every good researcher should like that. For me, you know, I was traveling. I think part of the reason I was traveling was because I wanted to meet a whole load of different people and I think the beauty of traveling is you strike up conversations with random people and you let the you know let let the stories take you and that's kind of what we do as researchers right so particularly as qual researchers so I think after talking to me for a bit and you know you know it was that classic we were there to find ourselves so we were very much me and my friend were very much there to to figure out what we were going to do when we got home um but I think you know I I did English language at university and I've always been a language student and I'm fascinated by sort of the sort of the social and cultural reasons why we lo use language and all the psychology behind all of that. So I think probably I chatted her about all of that and she uh she thought I might be quite good at at research which and she and hopefully she was right. You know I I love I love our industry. I think it's a fantastic career.

Leonard Murphy: Well, right there with you. Um, preach to the choir and it and yeah, I don't know if I've thought about particularly that way before of one of those key things is you just have to like people. Um, you have to like talking and learning and engaging. Um, uh, but as soon as you say it, it's like, yeah, we'd kind of suck if we really hated people. Um, wouldn't we? Yeah, particularly from a qual standpoint. Uh, that would be uh that would be a disqualifier. Uh, so you've been in the industry 22 years.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: I'm coming up on well, this my 26th year or so.

Rhiannon Price: Exactly.

Leonard Murphy: We've been around, we've seen a lot of change. Um my take is that we ain't seeing nothing yet, right? That the pace of change and disruption is increasing because of technology. Um and that's a double-edged sword. Um uh before we we started I told you my my view was this is kind of the golden age of qual from the standpoint of the ability to to have conversations with people um at at scale. at scale uh and be able to uh analyze that information and and get deeper. I I think all that's fantastic. Um uh but it comes with some trade-offs obviously. So what do you think? Right. You're in the trenches. You are you are there you you are you know experiencing this. What is the uh what does your world look like today compared to two years ago? And I'm going to do a double barrel question. Uh and what do you think it's going to look like next

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Year?

Rhiannon Price: Yeah. I couldn't agree more that it um it we're in we're on the precipice of a massive change and I think it's interesting to sort of be in amongst it and also watch industry response because people are petrified and I think people don't know there's so many different move you know moving parts at the moment that I don't you know for qual and for everything that I think people are kind of too fearful I think is probably how I how I see it. Um, so qu you know I cut my teeth on deep strategic qual project you know international you know 11 market studies you know that was what got me out of bed in the morning you know I I love the whole cultural tapestry of stuff and really you know there there's not as queer as folk like you meet as we said earlier you meet the most fantastic people and you hear all of these stories and I think that that is what makes qual is that it's the human nature is actually you know trying to decode all of that stuff and being sort of with people on on you know on their narrative journey and I think that's really important and sort of helping people guide people through that. I think you know not to hop on about co I think co changed that dramatically. I think it qual stopped being quite so multi-ensorial which is a real shame and I think you know I think you learn a lot through osmosis being in someone's home just being in someone's sort of presence and you know all of the you know all of the stuff that we get taught about you know non-verbal communication or that sort of stuff. I think sadly with COVID we lost we lost a lot of that but I think it's it's come back as people have kind of navigated their way through it and they've sort of f found other ways of sort of decoding some of that stuff. Um obviously with the sort of the the the meteoric rise of AI um that's created a whole other lens on this and I think previously when we spoke Lenny I you know we had a talk about you know AI and I you know my view is and it still is that um AI will make us more human. I think that in our day-to-day lives it will make us more human. I think it will leave us space to um you know really focus on things like empathy and creativity and you know ethical judgment and all that sort of stuff. Um but I think as practitioners it absolutely leaves space for that. So all of you know I've always worked for boutique agencies where you have to do absolutely everything. So the bit the the fact that we're now allowed to sort of outsource to AI all that stuff makes me such a better qualitative researcher. I can focus on the people again. I can focus on, you know, the psychology of why people are behaving like they're behaving. Um, and AI actually just becomes a real support act in all of that. And I think what's fascinating about AI is how it's kind of breaking open our brains a little bit. Like I think that we are, you know, we're interacting with AI in a completely different way to we interact with humans. Um, and that's just absolutely fascinating that you know all of the I think all of the principles that as a core researcher you try and put into place like making people feel comfortable, people opening up to you really easily, you know, all of that sort of stuff AI is managing to do at a drop of a hat because we feel protected by it. You know, we saw it during COVID when we were doing research through screens. I found that people were way more vulnerable um than I'd seen them be before more quickly. So I think that AI then has you know we'll talk later on potentially about a quai but um I think one of the benefits of that is that we are seeing a change in human behavior the way that human psychology is working and people are becoming a little bit more I guess primed to open up and feel safe and talk and you know all of that sort of stuff. that answer your question, but I just feel like it's a huge I'm very excited about the change. I don't share the opinion of some of my peers who are worried about AI stealing qual or being passed off as qual because I think there's actually a confidence in no we're we should be really confident in our own abilities and what we can bring to the table and actually that AI is creating a change as human beings that is I think really that we can really leverage um as as core researchers if that makes sense.
 
Leonard Murphy: No, it does. And actually the uh and I I tend to agree, right? in the more dig into this, right? Just because we have to um actually I had a conversation with Karen Lynch u yesterday on as we were preparing for our show the exchange at the very end. The difference between the uptake from a consumer standpoint versus the business standpoint, right? The consumer adoption of AI is still relatively uh low, but business, you know, every business is all in. And where we got to is well that of course that makes perfect sense, right? businesses are about efficiency. So, you know, it's about unlocking uh unlocking savings and and and revenue and blah blah blah blah blah, right? So, of course, that's that is what AI does. Humans and our daily lives um efficiency is not necessarily the driver of how we utilize tools, right? engagement um uh you know joy society you know there's there different elements that drive how I use technology is just Lenny Murphy uh you know dad husband you know etc etc versus Lenny Murphy you know uh work my point is that what I am finding as well is that from the business standpoint it is freeing up from taskoriented process oriented stuff that really doesn't drive value. It's just how you have to get to the value. And I am finding that is freeing me up to think and feel and

Rhiannon Price: Mhm.

Leonard Murphy: Appreciate human interaction even more, right?

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: That uh that unlocking of intuition of uh uh you know creativity, empathy, you know, connection, all of those things.

Rhiannon Price: Yes.

Leonard Murphy: And there's times I even feel like my neurons are firing in more efficiently which is a real challenge for me to begin with the uh than than it used to because the input the architecture is changing right of of how and processing information uh and I think that's good for us right I think that the outcome of that is good when we are tasked with understanding people right we we can understand more.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: multi-dimensionality I think at this point um uh can and can see those

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Outlines how the depth of understanding humans is increasing not decreasing although the process of how we get there certainly is changing uh overall so does that yeah kind of

Rhiannon Price: Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Feel like similar

Rhiannon Price: Absolutely. I Yeah, I couldn't agree. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that um there's also I think as people, you know, you're right in the business context, we're using AI way more than we do in personal lives. I think in the personal lives, you know, through all the research I've done and just general observation of how people are using it out in the wild, you know, there there's an emotional not dependency, but there's an intimacy with AI that perhaps we weren't expecting. So, I think that um in a way, yeah, I just can't help but feel like we're we're we're allowing ourselves to be unlocked a little bit more and a, you know, some of the guards are starting to come down potentially. Um, but I also think that, you know, back to that intuition, I think, you know, we're trying to inevitably, subconsciously or consciously, we're trying to create space between ourselves and AI. You know, whether that's very overtly in a business context to try and be like, okay, we need to prove our worth. You know, the fact that a lot of internal teams are starting to take, you know, I don't know about you and what it's like, but you know, a lot we're hearing a lot of we're doing that internally. we know we're using AI to do that and it's kind of like not the right one you know you know I think there's there's a whole lot of learning and navigating to be done in that respect but as we as sort of agencies and practitioners try and create I think we are going to have to lean on intuition and

Leonard Murphy: Mhm.

Rhiannon Price: Sensorial stuff and stuff that we can't and shouldn't ever expect AI to to do. Um, and it and it's all this, you know, it's all the stuff about not letting AI do our thinking for us. You know, just making sure that we are continuously making sure that we are, you know, back to what I was saying earlier on as qual researchers, we absorb so much stuff that isn't said that AI can never possibly know. like even that when we get to the best model ever, it will never know that. And I think that is something we have to just completely remind ourselves of um make sure that we are always the first line of defense, you know, that we are not pushing stuff straight into AI, that we're thinking objectively about what we've heard, um you know, what we feel um because that will have come from something that AI can't replicate. So yeah, I do Yes, I think that it's a very interesting time for sure.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Well, and you know that's uh one reason I want to talk to you right is you think of yourself as a practitioner. Um uh I do not think myself as a practitioner. So the because I've just never that's how my career progressed, right? I I manage the research within the research industry. I think about the the big stuff. But you know I anyway point is that so when I think about the word practitioner and since you're a language uh major maybe you'll appreciate this that to me that evokes process. So I the and doing things in a very specific way to get a specific outcome. Um, but that outcome is what's important. It's will pay us for that that meaning making, right? That sense making. And I'm sorry, my dog says hello. Um the uh uh and to your point that I think it's that meaning making component that that's where we're getting you know things are opening up right can see more opportunities to focus on the uh understanding

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Implications and uh and recommendations based on those implications rather than just that pulling the information together in a

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Manageable way which so often I think we get bogged down in that you know the

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: The the methodology uh

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah

Rhiannon Price: I feel so passionate about this topic. Like I've spoken at so many industry events about that very thing about you know that you know insight socializ insight socialization insight actionability you know that we are just living in a world of data. It's like corporate wallpaper. I think AI is just you know exponentially adding to that sense of overwhelm. We've got so much data, but we don't know how to understand it anymore. And we don't know how to um decode it and for for it to be played back into organizations. And you know, back at Northstar in about 2011, I helped set up a design studio because, you know, it was things were just getting lost and was okay, we we need to start marketing our insight much better than is happening at the moment. You know, it's top draw foder at the moment at best. Um and that was, you know, that's industrywide. So I think that for me it's always been about that last mile and I think with AI that last mile has become so much more important. you know, how do we how do we translate all the stuff that we've done and actually make that

Leonard Murphy: Okay.

Rhiannon Price: Something that can be actioned and um I think that's where we need to put our focus as well and like the the the power of visualization throughout the whole process you know and I think AI can help us with that as well but you know how are we visualizing you know using sort of I guess visual cues and frameworks and stuff all the way through the process and then you know doing a huge insight campaign at the back end and helping organizations to to sort of feel it and and and action it I think is is still something that the industry is really rubbish at. Um and I think AI is going to make us even more rubbish at it. So I feel I've made that a passion project of mine. And I but I feel that it's going to get even worse

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Well, you know,

Rhiannon Price: Unfortunately.

Leonard Murphy: The only way out is through, right? So, you just got to kind of go through it. So, uh, you know, you're doing some cool stuff at Simpson Carpenter. You kind of referenced that, you know, a minute ago. So,

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: So tell us kind of what's happening now from as you're, you know, participating in leading uh this change within your organization. Uh what does that look like in terms of you know tools and products and solutions and yeah where's

Rhiannon Price: Yeah. Yeah. So, I think one of the reasons I was really attracted to Simpson Crawford is that idea of doing things differently and better and um you know the the whole AI conversation was kind of ahead in because there was so many like research agencies talking about it. No one was doing anything about it whereas Simpson Carpenter were doing something about it. Um so we're really unique in the sense we've got a um an internal development team headed up by a guy called Dave Bostock and also um PC man and um there was just a real desire to try and maintain the integrity of research in this whole AI swirl. So um we've essentially developed a whitespace solution called quai. So it's not qual it's not quant but it's essentially a humanoid um AI moderator. So it can be a sort of a completely of your choosing and we're doing a study on moderator matching now on the idea that it can potentially unlock more from people if you know with the idea that we tend to open up better to people who look like ourselves or have got shared traits. Um but it can hold like many many many interviews in parallel. Um but it's the humanoid rapper part of it that's an industry first and that I feel and and the team feels really passionate about because it's it's what I was talking about earlier on. It's that part of it which starts to unlock the psychological shifts we're seeing at the moment. Um, and we've done, you know, the team have done such rigorous testing. It's, you know, it's it's been, you know, the guard rails around it are are insane. And, you know, the whole the whole thing of it as a quali completely blows my mind. And most people would be like, well, re, in fact, loads of people say me, R, you're a quali like don't why do you want this? And I'm like, I want this. Like, this is basically opening up something completely different. It's not going to replace my ethnographies or my groups or my ideas in that way. This is like at the moment short 15-minute conversations at scale, but it's a two-way natural conversation um which is completely blown open the way that we design research. You know, we're not doing discussion guides anymore. We're not doing surveys. It's a it's a prompt guide. Um and and it's all completely natural. She's just instilled with an an objective or he or she's instilled with an objective and she and she works I still call her she works across that objective which any good moderator actually should. Um but what's fascinating about it the theory proved to be completely true like we went into it thinking you know okay we felt that people were going to shortcut vulnerability and honesty and you know we'll be able to get to the the crux of stuff a lot quicker and that has proved to be completely true. you know, people are opening up in ways we hadn't have imagined and you know,

Leonard Murphy: Thanks.

Rhiannon Price: I'd be pretty rubbish at my job if I couldn't get people to do that, too. But, you know, people are doing it and competing within like 13 minutes and we're getting some, you know, it's really it's a fascinating whites space solution. Um, but people I think people are scared of of that. Um, and I think there has to be guard rails around stuff like that. You know, I've seen other models that are completely self-s serve and all that sort of stuff, and I think there's value in that for sure. But you know again we have to be careful around just giving that to a client and being like there you go. Um so so yeah so I think that's really energizing me at the moment because I feel

Leonard Murphy: Yep.

Rhiannon Price: Quite confident in Quall's stance you know human qual that it can there's room for something like this and there should be room. is just I think challenging people's current paradigm you know which has always happened right and it takes people feel uncomfortable for quite a while and then they go well actually yeah we didn't you know this is unlocking a load of stuff we didn't know existed before um so there's a real education piece around around all of this type of AI solution um doesn't because

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: I think the problem is there's so much out there everything just gets lumped under the same label for better or for worse

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: Which I think is a real shame

Leonard Murphy: Well, I love that that framing of Yes. Are some functions being replaced? Yes. Glad that I I am not a was not a coder.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: I mean, so that yes,

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: That's that happened. No way around it. But the unlock of new things that we didn't even think about before because the technology didn't exist, you know, for us to to to do that, right? I mean, that light bulb moment of, oh, wait a minute, we could do this now. That's kind of cool. Um the uh I liking it.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: One day we'll get to the whole VR thing, right? We're not we're not there yet, but that but I think that was a good expression when that was such a buzz topic of no

Rhiannon Price: Hey.

Leonard Murphy: Imagine what we could do in a VR world with, you know, uh shelf testing or whatever, right? like you just do so many things in a different way that we just couldn't do before. And sounds like that's what you're focused on is look we're not this isn't about the replacement.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: This is about the augmentation. So this is unlocking new capabilities that you know and leveraging them effectively

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Uh to deliver more value.

Rhiannon Price: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: And I think the next stage is to give clients the confidence to make the change and start sort of

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: Moving in that direction as well.

Leonard Murphy: Uh it's happening. I I think I think that and that's probably the part that the industry itself at a macro level

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Is struggling with is that the pace of change the uh you know the only thing I can liken it to was it you know this time in 2020 when you know the shift from uh from in person to to virtual but that was the the rails were there right I mean I was trying to to do virtual focus groups in 2008. I couldn't give them away, right? So, but you know, like the capabilities were there. It just needed a uh you know, there there an event that caused that switch that was rapid.
 
Rhiannon Price: Yes. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Um any other shift we've ever seen has taken years uh years and years and years. The this is unprecedented in uh it's not an event. It's just a it's an avalanche, right? I mean, it's just a cascade effect that I don't think we've ever seen. Uh, incomparable and we're still trying to just wrap our heads around it,

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Right? It's being a meaning making, right? Of uh yeah,

Rhiannon Price: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: What does this look like? So, uh what be conscious of your time as well as the uh as our listeners. So, you've just given it your view on where the future kind I think is going from a technology standpoint. It's really exciting that you guys are building stuff. Um I think that's awesome. Um what lessons would you give right to other folks that may be listening to this thinking about uh either early in their career um or thinking about a career um uh and and I think especially as as

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: As a woman as a you know wife and mother and you know balancing those choices out uh overall condense your wisdom

Rhiannon Price: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's not much of it, so it shouldn't take too long. Um, yeah, I I think my biggest one I'll talk about sort of the mom stuff in a second. So, I think that is really important. I feel really passionate about all of that. Um, I think it's fine to find a passion. Like for me, I think passion is contagious. I think if you find, you know, it's very easy to be swept up in tools and trends and but you need to find something at your core within the industry that you want to get out of bed in the morning for. And I feel very lucky that I had that all the way through. Um, and it was very much passed down to me through my old my old boss, Matthew C. But I think that it's, you know, so find a passion and pedle that passion because that's what's going to make you stand out. That's what's going to make you sell business. You know, people buy passion at the end of the day. If you, if you care about what you're doing, everyone else will as well. Um, I think also, you know, the idea of being sort of dangerously curious. I know that's like buzzwordy, but I do think there is something in, you know, as humans, we are I think we sometimes feel a false sense of protection by things that have been done before. And that, you know, I've seen it in so many different walks of life and and in the business world.

Leonard Murphy: Welcome.

Rhiannon Price: You know, you see it with clients, you see it with agencies. You know, just because it's always been done that way, it doesn't mean that's the right way of doing it. And it's, you know, and I think sometimes you need to break a few eggs and all that. And I think that, you know, not for not for change's sake, but I think if something doesn't work anymore, we need to change it. Do a year in Bologna and I always remember um a friend I think you know she was taking off a coat or something that did she don't need anymore and she said oh nom and literally translated that means that doesn't serve me and for me that was a huge light bulb moment for my whole like life where I was like oh my god that's such a perfect translation like it didn't serve her like does does stuff serve the purpose is it optimal for its function anymore do people serve you in your life yes or no and I think as a as a budding researchers people should confident to challenge the norms and think about whether this is fit for purpose and whether it serves the purpose anymore. Um, and I guess a final thing about being a mom, look, I think it's one of the hardest being a, you know, being a working parent, not necessarily just a mom, I think is one of the hardest challenges anyone will face in their career. Um, and I think it's, you know, I call it mom efficiency. Like I am so efficient now. Like I think if prekids re could um know how how much how much I get done, I'd be like, "Yay, go me." Um but I think, you know, you just suddenly have got a priority there, you've got a priority there that that is is insurmountable. Like nothing will ever top that little person that needs you. And I think it just focuses the mind incredibly. um and stuff just sort of you know the stuff that you would have stayed awake worrying about prek kids you're just like yeah it doesn't it matters but it doesn't matter like we will figure a way around this and it will be fine um I think also being a mom makes you maternal I think it makes you a better team leader it makes you a better way you know it helps you in that dynamic as well but I think it all is really important to have boundaries I was really rubbish at it after my fir first Matt leave um but I've become so much better at saying you Um that's where that's where work reends and this is where mumry begins and I will protect that time um because it's is the most important thing to

Leonard Murphy: I I I get that, you know,

Rhiannon Price: Me.

Leonard Murphy: Early from our previous conversation. know I have lots of kids and the but I think about my older kids the work was the priority and in my mind it was well because I need to do that to take care of my family

Rhiannon Price: Okay.

Leonard Murphy: Right um so traveling etc etc right the and the things that I missed um with my younger kids so even like right right now one reason I have not been at IIX um the past couple years is this is dance season Right.

Rhiannon Price: See

Leonard Murphy: And my youngest is really into dance and the uh she's in a in in a company and blah blah blah. And I don't know why, but in the springtime it's like every weekend there's some event or or competition or something. Um and it's like I'm not going to miss them. Sorry. the uh you know it's I I would love to go to these events and and do all of those things and that's
 
Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: That's great and I'm but I'm not gonna I'm not going to miss my daughter's dance events because I missed too many with my older kids

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: And so yeah that learning the boundary stuff um

Rhiannon Price: Yeah. Yeah. And also managing the guilt that comes with with that both ways.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: I think that's one one of my hardest challenges as well is that you know again guilt doesn't serve anybody. You feel guilty about not being at work. feel guilty not about being with your kids and it's just you just got to let go of the guilt.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Well, I know I think about, you know, guilt. It's one of the It's one of those things like, "All right,

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: I'm not comfortable with this. I should pay attention to that, you know, and may to your point, make a change because I I don't like feeling guilty, so I don't want to do that anymore.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: That makes me feel guilty. Make the change and then move on. So, yeah. Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Well,

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: That's all all all great stuff. So, uh last question is you think about the uh the industry five years out, right? What's what's your vision? What for yourself and for the industry? What do you think that looks like? What's what's your aspirational uh hope that we all kind of arrive

Rhiannon Price: Oh, honestly, Lenny,

Leonard Murphy: At?

Rhiannon Price: I think that's such a huge It's such a huge question. I can't even imagine what it's going to look like in five years if we're all still if we're all still on the planet Earth. Um, I think that it's going to I I think that we're not going to be thinking about research projects anymore.

Leonard Murphy: Mhm.

Rhiannon Price: I think we're going to be talking about it sounds like a really jargony term, but like intelligence systems. Like I think it's going to be just a a continuous stream of intelligence.
 I don't know how yet, but we need to figure out as as sort of agencies and practitioners how we plug ourselves into that new model. I think that's going to be definitely happening. Um, I think that I hope that stuff we talked about earlier, we I I I hope that AI sort of has its ascent and then normalizes so that we then can get some of the the deeper reer stuff back in the pipeline that we're seeing people moving away from at the moment. Um, I hope for that as well and I hope that everybody gets really good at that last mile. Like I think that that um but but honestly I I wish I had a better answer for you. I um I think I share the the sentiment of quite a lot of my peers and I I honestly it's for the first time in 22 years I can't look ahead and go what's it going to be because it just feels like it's going to be unrecognizable. Um and I can't imagine that right now.

Leonard Murphy: Fair enough. Fair enough. And I think that's you can see the direction of travel I think right and and we get inklings of that the uh but we also like okay in the

Rhiannon Price: Yes.

Leonard Murphy: Next literally the next year you know the the humanoid robots are being rolled out. What the hell is that going to look like right just at a social level as well as are we gonna have ro

Rhiannon Price: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Like literally robot interviewers? Um yeah, you know, maybe uh yeah, like I I think we're moving more towards kind of a Star Trek uh type of future. I see that outline. Um and you know, that's that's interesting. We'll see. Uh I hope it's not Black Mirror. It could be just as easily Black Mirror. Um the uh if you ever watch that show um

Rhiannon Price: Yes, I know. I do.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: Hope not.

Leonard Murphy: The the robot dogs episode. What was that? Uh, do you ever watch that one? It was scary as hell. But the Anyway, uh, we won't go dystopian dystopian hellscape is how I

Rhiannon Price: They all scattered. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Tend to to find that,

Rhiannon Price: Oh, yeah.

Leonard Murphy: But I Yeah,

Rhiannon Price: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: But I I think we're heading towards something that looks a little cooler and more interesting.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Um, but yeah, boy, we it it's interesting.

Rhiannon Price: I I just think we've all got to stay We've all got to stay positive. Like I think we've got to buckle up, stay positive, not get scared. And I I do think that that's going to be the only way through this is um because I think there is so much fear in

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: The industry at the moment. And that's not going to that's not going to serve anybody. You know, we've just got to flip that narrative and be like, "Okay, this is opportunity. This is change. This is great.

Leonard Murphy: Yeah.

Rhiannon Price: It's going to be bumpy, but it's going to be fun." And that's my view on

Leonard Murphy: Yeah. Yeah. I I I agree.

Rhiannon Price: It.

Leonard Murphy: I agree. And it's inevitable, right?

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: The I mean this that's the history of our species. So things change. It just this feels different because pastor um the uh

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: Uh but that's also you know you know this and our listeners too.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: I I you live with around Amish and Menanite. I mean there are horse and buggies going up and down my road. the uh so it's a totally legitimate means of transportation, you know, but I have a car and it go it can go really fast and the uh we'll both get to our destination, but it was always going to change, right? The the way that we do things was always going to change and it always will.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: So, in uh in five years, I'm sure we'll have flying cars.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: You know, the uh we already do. They're just not scaled, right? No, we'll go even faster. So the pace of change that is the dis that's the fear component.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: I don't think it is the change itself.

Rhiannon Price: That's the failure.

Leonard Murphy: It is the it is the pace. But anyway, we could go on and on about all of that. Um Ron uh thank you so much for the time.

Rhiannon Price: Yeah.

Leonard Murphy: It's always a joy to uh to chat. Um uh really for those who didn't know, Rihanna interviewed me uh what about two years ago? I guess something like that. the uh yeah uh uh and it was

Rhiannon Price: Yes. Not. Yes.

Leonard Murphy: Uh one of the few conversations you you are very good as a moderator. It was one of the few conversations I've ever had that I got that personal I guess talked about things that I don't normally talk about from professional standpoint. So you're really good at drawing stuff out. So where can people find you?

Rhiannon Price: Um, do you mean physically or digitally or everywhere?

Leonard Murphy: How can people how can people contact you? Uh but not in a stalkery kind of way. So, how's

Rhiannon Price: Yeah, exactly. Not right away. Um, my my email address,

Leonard Murphy: That?

Rhiannon Price: Is that what you mean? My email address is um rpricescar.co.uk. I'm on LinkedIn. Um, and I also do a regular feature for Research World, interviewing fine people in the industry like yourself, Lenny. So, um, yeah, and in general speaking at conferences this year as well. So, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm a big fan of the industry and and being part of all of that. So, um I hope to have chats with people as as the year progresses, for

Leonard Murphy: Great. Great. Well, Rihanna, thank you so much.

Rhiannon Price: Sure.

Leonard Murphy: Uh really appreciate the time and uh we'll look forward to uh talking again at some point in the hopefully not too distant future. Okay.

Rhiannon Price: Thanks so much,

Leonard Murphy: Thank you.

Rhiannon Price: Lenny.

Leonard Murphy: All right.

Rhiannon Price: All right. Bye. Bye.