Crispin Beale of IDX on Evidence-Led Communications

What happens when evidence, communications, and AI converge? Crispin Beale, Worldwide CEO of IDX, joins Karen Lynch to explain why organizations must rethink how they manage their narratives in an era shaped by answer engines, synthetic audiences, and machine-led discovery. He shares how IDX is integrating data and insights across performance marketing, corporate communications, and investor relations to help clients make more rigorous decisions without slowing down creative work.

Crispin also explores the promise and risks of synthetic data, arguing that transparency and clear tagging are essential to prevent contaminated “data lakes” and protect longitudinal research. The conversation also covers IDX’s Geneva data and insights hub, the value of global industry networks, and how leaders can build cultures where experimentation, collaboration, and responsible innovation thrive.

Key Discussion Points

• Why communications must be designed for both human audiences and AI-powered answer engines.
• How IDX is embedding data and insights into creative, performance marketing, corporate communications, and investor relations.
• The value of testing creative concepts with real consumers and synthetic audiences before launch.
• Why synthetic data must be clearly tagged to maintain transparency, research integrity, and trustworthy data lakes.
• How leaders can encourage innovation through cross-functional collaboration, open communication, experimentation, and permission to fail.

Resources and Links

• IDX
• The Future Role of Communications is Taking Shape
• Insight Innovation Competition

You can reach out to Crispin Beale on LinkedIn

Many thanks to Crispin Beale for being our guest. Thanks also to our production team and our editor at Big Bad Audio.

Transcript

Karen: Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Greenbook Podcast. I am so happy this morning—we’re recording in the morning—because I have one of my favorite people in the industry on today. I’m so honored and excited to be talking to Crispin Beale today, friends. He is currently the worldwide CEO of IDX, and it’s one of the first times I’m speaking to him in this new role. You may know him from other CEO roles that he has had. He is not unfamiliar to the role. I’m going to let him introduce himself to you in full and explain what he is doing, but what an accomplished CEO he is, a research pioneer. And Crispin, before I even talk too much more, I just want to say welcome. I’m so glad you’re here. 

Crispin: Thank you, Karen. It’s an absolute delight to be with you. I'm a huge fan of Greenbook and everything you do, so thank you for talking to me.

Karen: Well, you’ve been such a partner of ours for so long. I take those words, you know, truly sincerely and authentically, so I appreciate that. So yeah, why don’t you talk a little bit more about yourself? I can’t imagine there’s anybody in the industry who doesn’t know who you are and where you’ve been, but kind of bring everybody up to speed a little bit on where you’ve been, your journey, and then we’re going to dig into what brought you to IDX. But tell them a bit about your background first.

Crispin: Yeah, sure, and I’m happy to. Well, I suppose it’s not really a conventional background, you know? I originally trained as a biologist, so I’ve always liked data and information and numbers. Then qualified as a chartered accountant here in the UK doing auditing, and then moved into consulting with Coopers & Lybrand, as it was then, became PricewaterhouseCoopers, and then went over to a big electrical retailer in the UK to head up all of their research and insights division. So, that was my first footprint and ended up in the sector, like so many people, almost by accident. And then have held various roles on the client side with the big British Telecom, our big telecom operator here, and Royal Mail, our postal service, where I’ve done marketing roles and insight roles within those. And then spent a decade running all of the data and insight and analytics agencies at Chime Communications, which was great fun. And then vowed I wouldn’t. And vowed I was done having led an agency group for ten years, and sort of said, “No, no, no, I’m going consulting. I’m doing non-exec,” and so took on various advisory roles with, for example, US tech company mTab—who specialize in that automotive space, and they’re doing a lot of stuff with AI—which was meant to be a sure gig for a few months, and six, seven years, I’m still senior advisor there because I love them; they’re a great bunch. Some stuff.

 And then I ended up doing advisory work with Behaviorally as well, and then the CEO there convinced me to go and join as group president, looking after all their customer and commercial and sales operations and marketing all around the world, which was interesting. And then I got headhunted and convinced to jump ship and go and join, as you said, IDX, the communication solutions company, which was a bit different on the face of it, but to me very, very similar in some ways, in that I think there’s a lot more similarity than perhaps people would think initially. So, that’s a whistlestop tour of my background, I guess, for those that don’t know.

Karen: Yeah, I love that, and we’re definitely going to dig into all things IDX, but also I do want to point out all that you’ve been very involved in, kind of, the Insight250, your reach across the industry, you know, a lot of people. You have met a lot of people. That’s what I mean when I say you are quite well known, and you know, quite a few people, too. You have quite the reach, and I wonder what that perspective gives you across the industry that you’re bringing into your role. 

Crispin: Yeah, I mean that’s a really good point. I’m very lucky, and I’ve held roles with the MRS. I’ve been on the board of the Market Research Society—the UK’s body—for 20 years, including chairing it for a while. I’ve been a SMR country rep for nearly two decades as well. I’ve sat on the fellowship board of the MRS, which is the equivalent of the laureates board for the Insights Association, where I also sit. We had some interesting meetings last week looking at the laureate nominations for this year.

And as you rightly say, Insight250, that’s been going six years or so, we’re just about to announce our next cohort of Legends and our 2026 winners. We do that at SMRs Congress in Valencia in September. And all of these are a real privilege because it means I get to meet so many people and such outstanding talent all around the world, both sides of the pond, but also all continents around the world. And I love that because I think you can learn so much from things going on in different countries, in different sectors, by different people with different backgrounds, and that diversity is something that you just can’t get enough of in any role, and it’s important here. But I also think it is sad that we don’t champion our industry enough, and so that’s why I’m so passionate about Insight250 and things like the laureates and fellows at MRS because I think it’s important we champion the real experts and geniuses that are working in our sector.

Karen: Yeah, and I think—I bring that up quite specifically because that’s the context that I know of you and that many of us did know of you, and thus the announcement that you joined IDX made a lot of us take a moment and say, “Well, that’s interesting,” because it wasn’t just that you were hired by an organization because we knew that you could be headhunted at any moment by any organization because of your qualifications and your credibility, but it was that it was an organization that was on the, you know, peripheral of what we typically do and consider an insights company, and yet you’re so vested and immersed in what we might consider the industry. So, for those of us who might have talked insider scoop said, “Well, this is interesting.” So, that’s the lens I wanted our audience to, kind of, have as we continue our conversation. So, let’s talk a bit about IDX.

Crispin: Yeah, sure. Well, IDX have been around for a long time as well, 26 years. They specialize—I guess, greatly simplifying—in, sort of, communication solutions, if you like, with helping with website builds, with AEO, with digital twin technology, with performance marketing, so a broad range of communication solutions. Data has always been important in that, but I think there was a recognition that it was needing to become more and more important, and that was one of the reasons I think that I was brought in and have looked to expand the capabilities that we have in the data function. Because great communications are no good if they’re not evidence-based in my mind.

The days when a creative director or a marketing director could literally decide what a great advert was based on what their wife thought or a few people down the pub, something else, are gone. And now, the same way as I’m used to that discipline with my old hat on as an accountant and an auditor, where, you know, that sector is so very much regulated and has to be robust and there has to be the evidence to prove it, now I think boards and others want that same proof for communications. And so, I think that’s very, very important. Then there’s the flip side of that as well, in that many people around the world are doing the most amazing insights and analyzing data and coming up with that, so we have robust evidence, and we had that within MRS. We introduced that as our tagline: “Evidence matters.”

And I think it does because you can have great community, great insights, and great evidence, but if it’s not communicated effectively, it’s pointless. It’s data sitting in an email folder or on a report on a shelf. So, you have to, if you like, have communications evidenced and evidence communicated, which is a bit of a twee tagline, if you like, but I think it’s so important. And so, those two worlds almost colliding, tied into something I’m very passionate about and gave me that variety. And I’ve done marketing and advertising roles in the past. I was marketing services director at Royal Mail Group for a while, and indeed, when I was at university, did work experience in PR companies and things.

 So, for me, it seemed a natural combination, and not some people just thought, “Well, wow, this is really different. Why is Crispin leaping to it?” And people said, “But the skills. Your career has been built around data and intelligence and understanding.” A lot of it has, but the fundamental skills of any agency, I believe, are understanding the problem and what a customer needs or a client needs, and then helping solve that. And I think in data and insights and in communications, over recent decades, that’s often been forgotten. And people talk about customers at our heart and customer focus, but it doesn’t really happen. And so, for me, that passion was something that’s just the same and just as important in a communication solutions or a performance marketing organization as it is in a data and insights one.

Karen: I’m curious because I do want to talk about why now for IDX and the importance of this kind of shift for what they’re doing, but I also want to talk about you and was it just that you have this in your background, or was there something else they hooked you with? Like, why was this the right decision for you at this time? You know, what was it they, during your interviewing process, how did they hook you? You know, what did they—and I don’t mean anything that’s proprietary. I don’t mean anything that’s in your package. That is not what I’m asking you about because I know you well enough to know that you’re intelligent enough that they had to hook you intellectually as well. So, how did they get you? How did they get to your—how did they tap into that passion?

Crispin: Yeah, and honestly that’s a good question because I wasn’t looking to move. I was very happy. I’ve always loved every single job I’ve ever done, and I’m a great believer if you throw yourself into something, you do enjoy it and get lots out. So, I wasn’t looking at all, and initially I just was saying, “Oh no, no, I’m busy. I’ve got lots of things on. I’m not interested in having any conversations.” And then they convinced me to meet the chairman, Nigel Morris, a guy that’s been around the comms world for many years, a really bright guy, does a lot with Google and others, and I met him and really liked him. And then as they, sort of, talked to me about the scale of their ambition and some of the challenges they had in a rapidly changing world as it moves to AI, I just thought I can’t turn it down. I love a challenge. I love rapid growth. I love a focus on customers, and when I saw that there was the opportunity here to expand rapidly, to move into new technologies, to recruit more people, to grow something significantly, and have the backing of a huge PE to do that, I just said, if I don’t do this, I’m always going to regret it.

And that’s always, I think, been my mindset on when to change roles and what to do, and it’s served me well so far. And I’ve been at IDX now just over a year, and I have to say I love every minute of it and I love being back in control of my own agency group as a group CEO. Obviously I did that for ten years at Chime, and I do like it when the ultimate decision rests with me and my leadership team, and so I can just move at real pace. I’m not having to negotiate and agree what’s happening; we can get on with things.

Karen: I want to talk about this idea that you were talking about before, the… kind of—the need for, kind of, data-based decisions and, kind of, fact-based decisions, even in communications and the importance of not basing it on your wife’s point of view or your husband’s point of view for that matter or, you know, just your gut feel. Because we—for those of you who—we can put it in the show notes, but for those of you who don’t know, I also interviewed Crispin, and we published an article talking quite a bit about this, about the idea that, you know, we are doing things differently right now in our world, or we should, or IDX certainly is because there are real stakes at the moment. Things have changed. So, expand a little bit about that now, about why it’s so critical that it’s being done differently, or it should be done differently, if you are not of this mindset. 

Crispin: Yeah. Well, I think looking at a big chunk of our business, the, if you like, the corporate communications, investor relations, the website side of the business, you know, AI has fundamentally changed how companies are understood. You know, if you think now of investors, journalists, rating agencies, potential employees, or customers, you know, all of these different audiences that need to seek information, now they’re getting that from AI-generated sources before they’ve ever visited a website. So, organizations risk losing control of their story, they’re all important narrative because that narrative is now being formed by machines as well as humans. And I think stories has to be optimized for that AI-driven discovery, if you like.

So, companies want to be the primary source. They need to be the primary source from which the AI systems build their understanding of the business. Because if they’re not, those answer engines will pull it from Glassdoor, from competitors, or God forbid, probably not a politically correct phrase, but I’d say almost brand terrorists, you know, people that hate the brand and are writing negative things about it. But if the answer engine can’t pick it up from the corporate website because they can’t access the schema or the content, they will pull it from these other sources, and then people have lost control of their narrative, and that becomes ever more critical in a world that’s full of fake news and fiction, and people don’t know what’s true or what’s not true. So, we have to make sure that communications, be that websites or campaigns, are designed for humans, but machines too.

And I think websites and things have those two roles. You know, it needs to be a source that can be read by the machines and the answer engines, and also a destination that’s visited by humans who want to verify those answers. So, if you like, in some ways it’s simple in that machines and humans want the same thing: they want that clear content, they want the specific claims, they want current, up-to-date information. You’d be staggered. How many people are leaving stuff out there on their websites that’s totally out of date, or they’re not telling the answer engines that this is up to date, so the answer engine doesn’t know if it’s from ten years ago or yesterday.

 And it needs, most importantly, coming back to my thing, to be evidence-based. That’s what machines and the humans want to know. Is this true? And for machines, is it easy to extract and interpret? For humans, is it easy to trust and validate? So, I think for IDX, you know, we’re not helping with websites as such in this area. You know, we’re delivering narrative control in the AI era, and I think that is so important. It comes back to this: well, that is evidence-based. That is my whole data and insights background, but it’s now being utilized to make communications effective. And so, for me, as I say, it just seems a natural transition and not moving sectors, but just making sure that the comms sector is using the data and insight skills to be effective.

Karen: What I want to get at next is, kind of, how you’re doing what you’re doing because shortly after sometime within the last year, you opened up a Geneva office. You now have started a data and insights team to, you know, kind of, bring all of that in. We need to talk about the decision. We need to talk about who you’ve hired. We need to talk about Lonneke de Roo. So, let’s go there. And—who, by the way, you know, I’m sure you can share more, but the Head of Data and Insights there at the Center of Excellence, tell me all about that. Tell all of us all about that because you’re building something quite significant there.

Crispin: Yeah, absolutely. And I think for us it was really important. You know, we’ve always—IDX—been involved in data and insights. It’s part of our connected content model that we use of linking data, technology, media, and creative, and connecting those things together with the right strategies to deliver to those multiple audiences that we touched on earlier. And we said now in the world, the changing world we live in with all the fake news and things we were just discussing, that evidence piece, that data and insight piece becomes ever more important. And Geneva, of course, is one of the huge centers for commerce, if you like, in Europe. So, many companies based there, so much going on. It’s a good hub for us. So, when we saw the opportunity to strengthen our data and insights offer that we’ve had for many years by not just saying, right, well, we’re going to do more in this space, and we’re going to make sure we deliver our clients that real expertise in evidence, we’re actually doing something about it. So, we’re putting seven people who we know are truly brilliant and specialize in this area and specializing in answer engine optimization and the other tools we’ve got, and then we can increase our total addressable market, if you like, geographically by having that presence to service our clients across Europe more effectively.

And we’ve got locations in Helsinki and Gothenburg, and we’re headquartered in London, but we’re working with clients all over Europe, so having a bigger presence there is helpful. And it was at the right time, the right people became available, and we sort of said, “Well, actually, if these people are available, we’re going to snap them up, we’re going to bring them into the fold, and we’re going to get them helping offer these solutions to our clients around the world,” which is proving to be, touch wood and everything so far, very, very well received by our clients and tying in with the strategy. So exciting.

Karen: So, one of the things that you had shared is that this Geneva-based team is working very closely with your performance marketing teams, your corporate communication teams, with colleagues that you have in place. What is that collaboration looking like? Like, how are they sharing information, how are they working to serve clients together?

Crispin: Yeah, absolutely. That’s a fundamental point, Karen, it really is. And this is not about creating an isolated center of excellence that are focusing on data and insights and, sort of, going off doing their own thing. This is a team of people who have fully integrated into our global operations, and so where last week one of our big clients in Chicago has got some challenges, they needed to actually verify some data and insight style problems, we’re using the team to do that. And literally all around the world is working.

And then literally this week we’ve got a big client in the medical space who’s based out in Geneva who wants some help with answer engine optimization. The team are working, project managing that, liaising with experts from London and Phoenix to actually deliver those solutions. And when we set this up, we sort of said, if this team is sitting as an isolated team, we’ve failed. They need to be fully integrated into everything we do. So, they’re on all the calls with key clients, making sure that if there’s a data need, be that with real individuals or synthetic audiences, that they are acting as the experts to check that this is done with the rigor, the objectivity, and the transparency that, if you like, as three fundamental principles that all research should be based on, so that we’re making sure that discipline is championed across the organization. And likewise, they act as a hub to pull. We’ve got data scientists in London and Vadodara in India, and elsewhere, and it’s just coordinating all those efforts to make sure that the communications and things we’re doing are truly evidence-based.

Karen: I have another question, and it’s somewhat loaded, so I want to make sure it’s—[laugh] I want to make sure that I have the follow up, and I’m going to tell you both questions at the same time so that you know what’s coming. All of this is stemming from the idea that clients are under, kind of, this tremendous pressure, right, to make these decisions based on data that they’re not used to making. You know, they’re not used to thinking about their communications in this way, having this kind of evidence-based decision-making for communications, and now you’re offering, kind of, this solution. So, tell me what that pressure feels like, looks like, sounds like on the client side for you right now. What are you noticing? What are you perceiving? And then, how are you handling it? How are you? How are you, kind of, addressing that need state that they’re in?

Crispin: Yeah. Okay. Good question. I’m thinking about—I can think of a real example from this week of that in that a client that we’ve worked with for many, many years wants to relaunch one of their brands that they’ve not used for a long time. They’ve produced some beautiful advertising executions—we’ve helped, so I would say they’re beautiful; our strategists and creatives have done that—and the CMO at the brand that will remain nameless just said, “Oh, I really, really like this one. We should go with this one.” And one of our colleagues challenges and says, “But you really like that, and the company really like that one, and we’re really pleased you like it. We do as well. We’ve created it, but what do our audiences think? What do your target customers think?” He said, “Well, we’ll just—we’ll put that out there and we see what happens.” It’s like no, no, no. We should test it now. We should test all three executions with your customers—with the target customers as well, not just the general population—to see how we can make this as profitable and successful as possible.

Now, that for me is just good research, and if anyone came to a research agency and said we’ve got these three executions, we want to test it, they would do it. But these people don’t use a research agency; they’re using us as a comms agency, they’ve asked us to design three adverts, we’ve done that, and they would have chosen the one that they liked, and out it goes. And I’m sure it’s been very successful, but evidence base that because it may well be that a couple of tweaks could turn it from being really successful to unbelievably successful and become the category leader again overnight. That is how we do it. So, we’re not trying to go and say, “Hey, we want to come and sell you some data and insights.” We’re literally listening to what our clients are telling us, listening to the problems they have, you know, this brand isn’t working, they want to relaunch it, they want to be category leader. We’re producing them great creative, but then we’re going to test how they most effectively do that. So, we’re listening to their problem, we’re saying we have a solution for this, and we now have another solution that can help make this even better.

Do you want us to do that? And we can introduce you to the colleagues. This person on call happens to be an expert in this. This is how we do it. We can do it really quickly, so it’s not going to slow stuff down. And as I say, thus far, clients are like, “Well, fantastic. Yeah, that’s a no-brainer. We should be doing that, shouldn’t we? That’s great. Get on with it.” Which is nice. So, it’s good for our business in two ways. A, because we’re getting more revenues in because we’re doing some work that wasn’t being done, but it’s good as well because we’re making sure our communication solutions are more effective and they’re working better for our clients, so our clients get even better results, and then they come back and ask us to do more. So, it’s a beautiful example of a virtuous circle that helps everyone and everyone wins.

Karen: You know, I’m just sitting here thinking that you’ve eliminated the hurdle. You know, when I used to do qualitative, and I was often brought in on [comms checks 00:24:57]—which I think I shared with you in the pre-call, you know, this is my background—and I did a lot of this work, and the tension in the back room was always from the creatives themselves. They did not like this. They did not like their thoughts, their ideas, their execution being challenged because they were like, “Don’t listen to these folks. These folks, they’re going—to once you see it on screen, it’ll look different.” Or, “Once you see it in print, it’ll look different.” You know, like, there was resistance. But it seems to me that by this integration, by getting your teams on board with this, you are taking away one of the biggest hurdles in this entire process. But maybe I’m simplifying something that is way more complex than that.

Crispin: No, you’re absolutely right, and likewise, I’ve sat behind the glass on I dread to think how many thousands of focus groups over the years, often with the creatives who are determined that their ideas are audio break, even when sometimes it was given to me in advance, and you look at it and you think, there’s no way consumers are going to like that. I’ve sat for enough of these, I know, and so you’re then ending up with more of a mediation and political role rather than an insights or a comms expert role. So, I think it’s important. And it is good because it’s getting that discipline into all of our creatives as well. And we’re saying, well also, even if the client doesn’t initially want to do primary research, we should be testing with synthetic audiences, which we can build now, so in real time, we can test executions and things with a representation of the target group that the client’s aiming for. 

And then the client can choose to either do that very quickly and cheaply with synthetic audiences, or as I’d always advocate, doing a final test with real consumers and things because there are still challenges with synthetic data and things at times. But it’s just part of the mindset and part of the way of doing things, rather than just walking around the office and talking to 10 other creatives or 20 strategists and say which one of these do you like best? We’re actually independently and robustly using that rigor, objectivity, and transparency that I talked about earlier to make sure it’s robust. And the other challenge I’ve seen—because it’s not new. There have always been ad agencies.

You know, I remember working with M+C Saatchi, and they had their own researcher and people, and you immediately then, sort of, say, “Well, is that objective if you’re marking your own homework, so to speak?” But for us, that’s why ISOs and, you know, the team have already got the ISO 20252, and we have a plethora of other standards across the organization to show that we’re adopting the highest possible levels of professionalism and standards. We immediately signed the team up to be company partners of MRS, SMR, and Insights Association, again to say, look, we’re serious. We’re not just saying while we’re doing a bit of insight to charge you a bit more money to validate your comms. We’re actually saying we’re having a proper professional independent setup that will have that rigor and ISO discipline to make sure that this is done to an international standard, so that it is proper evidence, proper facts, not just a different version of subjectivity.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. Well, now there's two different areas where I’m going to go. So, as I certainly want to talk about your industry presence, which I appreciate, but I’m going to put that aside for a moment because it has to do with, of course, how we benefited by your presence at IIEX Europe. I’ll go there, but I also want to talk about something you’ve referenced twice now, which is synthetic data and digital twins because to me, both times you’ve said it, I’ve been like, “That’s obviously, that’s the future, that’s innovation, that is, kind of, what’s current and what’s now, and this world of AI that we’re in.” So, you are using these innovative technologies, these new… you know, kind of, new disruptions to the industry and it has me wanting to understand from, your point of view, from your perspective, you know, where you’re at with innovation at IDX, and how it is taking shape and form within the organization.

Crispin: No, I mean that, Karen, is a critical question. I mean, innovation is absolutely key for all organizations, and that’s why, as we will come to, I’m sure, the sponsorship at the competition. But I’m a huge believer in embracing and adopting technologies, and synthetic data, synthetic audiences are one of those things. But, and there’s a huge but to this, and I’ve written for Research World and other publications about this for probably five, ten years or whatever, a long time—because synthetic data and things aren’t really new. We talk about it as if it’s a brand new thing, but even remembering, you know—I remember discussing it with [Finn Robin 00:30:14], who used to be the SMR Director General, a great guy, and he, you know, was talking about AC Nielsen using it back in 1980s, where they were trying to extrapolate in Ireland the sales of Dunnes stores who wouldn’t participate in the AC Nielsen study from competitor data. So, in some ways, that synthetic data is being used back in the 80s, a long time ago.

But I do worry that as we launch any new innovations, any new products, we have to go back to those three principles that I’ve referenced a couple of times about rigor, objectivity, and transparency. And we must stress test the new tools—any new tools—against these principles. And for me, if you indulge me, I’m a passionate conservationist and environmentalist as well. I’m lucky; I live on a farm. I’ve run a conservation group for decades. I, you know, try and plant trees every year, and so I look at the environmental side.

And I think about something that I draw a comparison with it, which hopefully you’ll see where I’m going. But if you go back before I was born into the 1960s or so, there was all of a sudden this miracle fiber, you know, polyester, which was going to solve all the world’s problems, and you could wear clothes made out of polyester for days without it needing to be ironed and all the rest of it. Great material, fantastic, everyone was going to use this, and massive, rapid adoption. But there are unintended consequences that decades later we’re only just discovering. And every time you put these polyester clothes in a washing machine or whatever, some of the fibers would come off, they’re traveled out through the waste, down through the treatment plants, through the rivers, into the oceans, and we now have 15 million tons of microplastics sitting in our oceans. 15 million tons. And it’s growing at 500,000 tons, you know? A half million tons every single year. Now, we can identify that way easier. We’ve got the Great Pacific Garbage Patch as well, but so we can see we can now identify microplastics. Huge worries and huge risks. We’ve got the garbage patch, but we can extract those from the oceans. We can deal with it because we can see them.

Now, you can guess where I’m going, and I worry that we have potential challenges with synthetic data, but that they could be far worse if that synthetic data gets into data lakes in an uncontrolled fashion. Because if—and I’ve done a lot of political polling and things over the years as well—and if you’re on a Friday night and there’s a football game on—or soccer game as you say—you know, and you’re trying to get 18 to 24-year-old men, it’s like finding a needle in a haystack. So, being able to extrapolate on that sample, or if you’re doing sensitive healthcare research or something where there’s very few patients, but you want to get some views, using some synthetic twins, whatever people call them different things, but basically you’re putting some synthetic data in some synthetic audience, on that particular job. If you’ve got 1000 people and you’ve got ten in a category of bits of synthetic data, absolutely fine, no problem, really good, speeds up the product—or the project—makes it viable. It’s fine.

My challenge is that data all disappears off into the data lake, and then another survey is done with another 10 18 to 25-year-old men, and another and another and another, and then in a year’s time, a marketing director says, “Oh, I need to find out what 18 to 24-year-old men think about X, Y, and Z.” Alright, fine. So, they pull 18 to 24-year-old men from that data lake, and they analyze it, and they’re making decisions and drawing conclusions on a sample that they’re blissfully unaware is potentially a hundred percent synthetic data. Now, it may be all right for what they’re doing, but my worry, and, I guess, coming back to those principles—rigor, objectivity, and transparency—we have to, as an industry, have that transparency and we need to start tagging this synthetic data. And that needs to, I believe, come through regulation, be that from the ISOs or from the code of conducts from some of our global governing bodies, to say the same way as you tag whether this is male, female, old, young, or the various criteria put in, we should tag, is this synthetic data or not?

And then we know what we’ve got, and people can make their choice. They can either choose and say, “All right, well, we’re using all synthetic data,” or they can say, “Well, actually, no, that’s no good. We don’t mind having 20% synthetic, but we want the other bits real.” But I do worry that we’re not doing that at the moment. And we will end up with the problem we have in the oceans, but as I said at the beginning, worse. In the oceans, we can identify the microplastics, and it’s difficult, but we can remove them if we put our mind to it and do it, and they’re starting to do some of that.

But if we have no idea which data in the data lake is synthetic and which is real, we’re potentially going to end up with whole data sets that we have to throw out and can’t be used anymore, and that could muck up longitudinal data significantly if we don’t address this now and start to tag synthetic audiences, synthetic data. So, huge—as I say—a huge fan of synthetic data, synthetic audiences. It has a valuable role to play. It’s happening. We can’t say no, we’re not doing it. That genie is out of the bottle. I actually think it’s a really positive one. It’s giving us lots of wishes, but we have to do it mindfully, and we have to make sure regulations are there. Sorry, [I’m on a bit of a soapbox 00:35:51]. I feel quite passionate.

Karen: No. No, no, no. I mean, the reality is there’s two sides to this, right? There’s areas where we want to see innovation keep going because we can all benefit from it, but we also need the industry to push for that rigor and where we need guidelines and regulations. That is, sort of, the way of our world right now. So, you are not speaking a foreign language to me, and I’m sure many of our audience members appreciate that.

For the record, if you come to our virtual AI event in September—this episode will be launching in a fairly timely way, so this is pre-dating our AI episode—I will have someone from UNESCO speaking about some of the global consequences of AI, so that we are all mindful at an individual level what’s happening worldwide because I think it’s all important for us to understand, kind of, at a macro level what’s happening, even though we are individuals. And just, kind of, thought I’d let you know that, Crispin.

Crispin: ...yourself, and I do—please, I wouldn’t want anyone to go away thinking that I’m not a huge fan of this, but I think it’s important that we recognize the constraints. And you hear people talk about the risks, and I’m sure it will be in that conference of, you know, bias or lack of representativeness. It’s all Western anglophones that’s going in, and we need to make sure other languages and cultures are represented, or quality and reliability, or being ethical and transparent, and the impact on decision-making and regulatory and compliance risks. And I think these are all real risks, but they’re all addressable. We can deal with all of those things. We have to, but we just have to tag it. We have to have that transparency so that people know what they’re looking at. And that’s the same for all research. This is not new or different, but it just feels to me like it’s being missed at the moment. And if we put that one piece in place, we’re in a far better world, and it will be resolving problems before they happen in the future.

Karen: Yeah. That is certainly where we are with the with AI disruption, is we are at a time of full-on execution, but an era of governance. We need that governance, one hundred percent, so I think those tracking where we are. This is going to land quite well with them. But let’s talk—let’s go to, kind of, other innovation beyond just that. There’s other innovations happening out there, and the importance of, kind of, innovation. And then—and segue into the competition also, and what—I know you weren’t able to join us personally, but [Stefan 00:38:13] was, and Danny was, and certainly your IDX team was there. Tell me just, kind of, why innovation in general is critical to IDX and the work that you’re doing there, and then, you know, why you all supported the competition. Let’s, kind of, talk twofold there. 

Crispin: Yeah, sure. Well, firstly, an apology for not being there. I really want to be. I love IIEX Europe. It’s one of my favorite conferences around the world, genuinely. I had agreed to do the keynote opening panel for Ephemera, the global health body, and so I had the clash. And I was trying to work out if trains and things would make it work, and it was just physically impossible—

Karen: We totally understood. We missed you, but we understood [laugh].

Crispin: — I thought I’d be fine. I can leave after a keynote at nine, but it was at [unintelligible 00:39:03]. But yeah, innovation is just absolutely fundamental, and for us, there’s a degree of selfishness as well, in that we want to see the latest innovations, we want to have access to that. And you know, it took me probably three, four days judging the brilliant entries. They were amazing, but that was an education for me as well, and seeing these early ideas, some good, some I personally didn’t think as good, but understanding the thinking in the industry and what’s happening is critical. And so, being able to sponsor that so that other people could see innovations, other people could have their innovations championed, is crucial to me. And nice to then financially support the winners in evolving their ideas. So that, for me, is about selfishly us benefiting by getting new ideas and learning and thinking and being involved, but also helping to champion and rise up the whole industry and support that. And Greenbook have been very good at doing that over the years, some brilliant events, and so for me it was a pleasure to, sort of, step in and say, well, we believe in innovation being instrumental in everything we do at IDX, so we should support Greenbook for trying to do that for the wider industry that we’re now becoming more involved with again.

Karen: Yeah. Well, we had—again, I was able to chat with Stefan, which was great, and Danny was there to, you know, help to, kind of, you know, give out the award and be present there as well, so it was really quite a pleasure, and see the finalists. So, for those listening, you know, Crispin was able to be one of the judges that reviewed, you know, dozens of applicants for the competition—or competition entrance, I guess they’re called—and see how that whittles down to the top five, and then the top five pitch on stage live. And what’s interesting to me about that is that the judges really get to see all of them, as you were saying, Crispin. You get to see everything that is coming our way for that particular event and you get to see all these emerging ideas and you really get kind of a pulse on what the what today’s entrepreneurs are like. And I think that’s one of the, kind of—to me—one of the unique aspects of being the sponsor of this competition is that you just get a glimpse at [laugh] all right, here’s what today’s entrepreneurs in our industry are doing. How did that feel for you when you were seeing—like, you really get a glimpse that not a lot of people in the industry get. What did that feel like for you?

Crispin: Yeah, it was special and valuable and, I guess, you know, the challenge, and as you my board just said, “well, hang on, why are we sponsorin—is this beneficial?” And yet, I’ve got a board meeting at the end of this month and I can sit there and put my hand on my heart, and say one of the organizations that we didn’t know of that we learned about there, we’re now actually using to help us with a problem that one of our clients has. So, real example. You know, one of the short list of finalists who shall remain nameless, we sort of said, “Actually, we think you could help with a problem that we have at one of our clients. Would you like to partner on this?” And they’re delighted to. And I mean, that’s great.

So, it’s all about building the network, about championing innovation, using and seeing what happens, so I love it. So, it is definitely a privilege to sponsor and judge these kind of things, and goes full circle to what we were saying in the beginning about how lucky I always feel to have that access to laureates in the US or fellows in the UK for the MRS, and indeed work with the Market Research Society of India or and other great thought leaders out in the African continent. You know, it’s that network. And there’s no—all good ideas don’t just come from the US or the UK. They come from all around the world, and sometimes you can take a couple of different bits and combine them to produce something really special. So, that kind of knowledge and open mind, I think, is essential for everyone to have.

Karen: So, I think—and thank you again. I’ll probably thank you six more times before this episode is over, and we are getting close to wrapping, but thank you for that sponsorship. I certainly know the winners appreciated it. I have a question for you because that’s a great example of then you’re able to, you know, kind of, see, you know, an innovative company, you know, kind of, right out the gate. You know, and be not just exposed to, you know, a startup, but then be able to start to work with a startup, I think that’s a great benefit to even just being at the event, but encouraging, then, your team to start to work with the startup, and that all adds to an innovative culture at the organization. Are there other things you do in your organization at this new center of excellence or at IDX in general that continue to build this innovative culture that IDX has had and is continuing to grow? What does a CEO do to help support this innovative culture? 

Crispin: Yeah. Well, there’s a whole host of things, and where we’ve got big initiatives, like, we’re looking at AI, we create a task force and involve people from all around the business to get involved, have an AI champion in every department to see how it influences what they do, and we can do that. We also try and have really open communication. You know, we talk about communication solutions. We have to have great communications internally as well as develop them for our clients, so things like, you know, having weekly notes, using those communication channels where people know what’s going on around the whole organization, and I think that transparency has always been really, really important to me.

I’ve done it for as many decades as I can remember in leadership roles. I’ve always made sure there’s a weekly note where everyone says what’s happening in their area, what’s going on because people then join things up for themselves. They’re like, “Oh, I didn’t know in the US they were doing that, and I’m doing this in Scandinavia or this in Australia,” and now it’s like, “Well, okay. Well, let me connect with those people.” And we try and bring people together virtually and physically where we can as often as possible so that they know each other, they can discuss ideas, and if they see someone’s doing something, they think, well, that could apply to my client, that could help them, and they’re then comfortable to pick up the phone because it’s Mandy in Chicago, you know? It’s a real person rather than well that’s a bit scary or I don’t want to talk to them.

And so, I think that transparency and that encouragement and championing through awards and we have, sort of, you know, identify heroes each month for people who are doing things that then encourages people to innovate, but also making clear that not all great ideas actually turn out to be a great idea when you get them out there. And it’s then saying, “Well, we’re going to try five things, and if one of them works, that’s a huge success. If the other four don’t, that’s fine, but we have to know when to close them down and be relaxed about it, and say, ‘Well, that didn’t work. We’ve learned from it. We move on.’”

And I was lucky. The Dixon Stores Group, the electrical retailer who were very big in the UK, that was their whole mantra. And they had some amazing concepts and ideas that became, you know, multi-million-pound businesses—you know, probably billion-pound businesses, one of them—that just came up, people scribbling an idea on the back of an envelope and saying, “Let’s give it a go. Let’s see what happens.” They also had loads during my time, I was lucky to head up research and insights there, so you saw the things that worked and the things that didn’t, but you just say, “That’s great.” And you only need one thing like that and it secured the future of the company. And so, that transparency and encouragement for everyone to innovate because you don’t just come from an innovation department. You can’t create innovation in a silo. You need everyone to think creatively across a whole organization and communicate effectively.

Karen: They are so smart to have brought you on board, Crispin. I can say that. We are about out of time, but I do want to ask if there’s anything we didn’t cover that you want to get in for the final word.

Crispin: No, I think… I think it’s just my plea that I would reiterate that always think in everything we do about that rigor, that objectivity, that transparency, and make sure that in whatever organization you’re in, we’re embracing AI and answer engine optimization. They are the future, they’re happening, and those organizations that don’t embrace them will be left behind. And happy always to talk to anyone that wants to know more or wants help with that. But thank you for everything you do, championing it as well at Greenbook. It is appreciated.

Karen: Oh, my pleasure, Crispin. How do people find out more? 

Crispin: By all means, contact me on LinkedIn or idx.inc. Idx.inc is the website. But I’m always happy, I’m a huge believer in the power of networks, so LinkedIn or meeting me at a Greenbook event somewhere in the world, and just come and chat to me, come and talk to me. I’m always happy to talk to people, whether I knew them when I came to the conference or not. It’s good to know more people when you leave.

Karen: It is so good to know you, and thank you so much for being here.

Crispin: It’s my pleasure. My pleasure, Karen. 

Karen: And thank you again for your sponsorship of the competition in Europe. I hope to see you again, for sure [laugh].

Crispin: Likewise.

Karen: And thank you to Emma for producing this episode, for Big Bad Audio for cleaning us up when I had to clear my throat, and to all of our listeners, I sincerely appreciate you tuning in week after week. We will see you next time on the Greenbook Podcast. Have a great day, everyone. Bye-bye.