How a DIY Spirit Took Michelle Finzel from Small Business to DAP Global

In this episode of the Greenbook Podcast, host Karen Lynch sits down with longtime friend and industry veteran Michelle Finzel, Senior Manager of Consumer Insights at DAP Global. Michelle shares her unique career journey — from growing up in her mother’s market research business, to running Maryland Marketing Source for nearly a decade, to making the leap into corporate life at a leading home improvement manufacturer.

She reflects on navigating the challenges of COVID, letting go of business ownership, and discovering new fulfillment and balance in an in-house role. Along the way, Michelle offers valuable lessons on transferable skills, building collaborative teams, streamlining vendor relationships, and embracing change with confidence.

Key Discussion Points:

• Michelle’s career evolution from small business owner to corporate insights leader
• Lessons learned transitioning from self-employment to working within a large organization
• How DAP integrates research into product development and innovation
• Balancing in-house capabilities with trusted external research partners
• The importance of community, collaboration, and inclusive workplace initiatives

Resources & Links:

• DAP Global
• Qualitative Research Consultants Association (QRCA)

You can reach out to Michelle Finzel on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Michelle Finzel for being our guest. Thanks also to our production team and our editor at Big Bad Audio.

Transcript

Karen: Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Greenbook Podcast. I’m excited to be here with you again. It’s Karen Lynch, and I’m happy to be talking to someone I consider a friend today. So, I have known Michelle Finzel for maybe 20 years, and she is the Senior Manager of Consumer Insights at DAP. And, you know, again, when I say we’ve both been in this business for, you know, at least 30 years at this point, which is crazy, but we met kind of back in the glory days of the QRCA. For me, as many of you know, that was an organization that was near and dear to my heart. That’s where we met. We will talk all about that, but first, Michelle, let me take a moment and welcome you to the Greenbook Podcast. 

Michelle: Thank you so much, Karen. I’m really excited to be here.

Karen: I’m glad you are, too. I’m glad you are, too. So, before we get into the conversation that we’re going to have, just tell everybody a little bit about yourself, your current role, what you’re doing there at DAP.

Michelle: Sure. So, my name is Michelle Finzel. I am, as you said, the Senior Manager of Consumer Insights at DAP Global. So, as senior manager, my job is to really help give a voice to the consumer, make sure they’re part of the conversation that happens when we’re strategizing the product development process. I use some of the same typical quantitative and qualitative research methodologies to do so, and I’m excited to be able to do that with that DAT Global.

Karen: And just high level, tell everybody about the organization because, you know, we’re not talking about Coke and Pepsi or, you know, or P&G. We’re not talking about typical CPG over-the-counter. Tell us what kind of company DAP is. Because not everybody is looking at the logo on your shirt that stands out in the home improvement world. 

Michelle: Yes, we are a chemical manufacturer of home improvement products in the construction industry. Our products are geared towards the DIY’er as well as the professional contractor. So, we make all sorts of caulks and sealants, spray foam, adhesives, both, like, the kind you see in a regular store, versus, like, for professionals, for construction adhesives, repair items, those sorts of things.

Karen: Yeah. And I love that because we do have members of our audience who do serve, not just, you know, kind of in the B2B world, but do serve these, kind of, again, like, non-household, you know, consumer products, but are serving a different audience. So, I’m glad you’re here representing, kind of, the manufacturing world as well. So, thank you thank you thank you. Your career journey is what made me, you know, kind of light up when I saw something that came across, my kind of profile on LinkedIn, and I’m looking at my feed, and I’m like, you know, wow, Michelle has had quite a journey to this new organization. So, you know, for context, again, Michelle and I met at QRCA. You know, we repeated years at the same event, so we see each other each year, and we’d, you know, not just share kind of insight in the workspace, but also I’d learned a little bit more about her business. So, Maryland Marketing Source, you were the owner and president, starting in 2005 to 2021. Is that timeline accurate? 

Michelle: Not really. So, the company was originally my mother’s. She founded it when I was a child. So, I think I was eight years old. So, I’ve grown up in the industry, watching it develop. I worked for her off and on through high school, through college. I rejoined the organization in 2004 after grad school, and worked with her. I took ownership of the company in 2012 after she passed away. 

Karen: That’s right. And now I’m remembering, you and Missy—Missy Carvin, who we will shout out to as a mutual friend, who is no longer really in our industry, but we both the—again, back in these glory days of the three of us kind of spending a lot of time together at events, she did the same thing. She grew up in the business, and I remember now that you all had that in common. So yeah, talk to us a little bit about then. Do I have to say out loud for people, like, what happened around 2020, 2021 that made you rethink what your choices were [laugh]? 

Michelle: Let’s see if I can recall [laugh].

Karen: What was that?

Michelle: There were a great many life events at that time. Obviously, Covid put such a huge just boulder on top of everything we were trying to accomplish, in all industries, not just in market research. My business partner and I had been discussing potentially going only virtual anyway, but I, being the traditionalist, did not want to. I liked having a focus group facility, even though they weren’t as commonly used as they used to be. I liked having an in-person call center, even if we were conducting less phone calls and doing more interviewing online, I still liked having the buzz of the call center and having the people right there to interact with, to make sure that our surveys, that our focus group screeners, that they were working well. Covid told me, no. It was time.

Karen: Covid said, “About that…”

Michelle: About that… you don’t get what you want. So, we did have to switch to a virtual environment. But that posed a lot of challenges because it wasn’t just, you know, my business partner and I working from home, which we could figure out. We still had interviewers and we still had interviewers that I wanted to employ. So, there was a lot we were trying to figure out. And I’ll be honest, I was also dealing with a lot of trying to figure out the data compliance world at that time, too. So, between Covid and complying with compliance, there was frustration building. 

Karen: Yeah, yeah. Fair enough, yeah, yeah. So, then ultimately, again, like, so now we’re in the more recent times, this has been the only life you really knew, right? You grew up in it, and then you, you know, kind of inherit a business, and you’re running a business, and you have a partner, but this is what you know. And I think, okay, so within just a few years now, you’re doing what you’re doing now. So, talk to us about that part of your journey of making such a massive shift from I own and operate a business, and now I’m working, you know, on the corporate side and manufacturing company. Talk to me.

Michelle: Well, I’ll be honest, Karen, I never, ever expected this to happen, and if you would have told me one day I’d end up here, I would have told you were just pulling my leg because I remember sitting around once and saying I could never have a boss again. I’m too used to working on my own. And now I sort of like it. Which again, I never would have believed to be true. The transition was both a drastic awakening and also a slow, transitionary process. So, I was speaking with my business partner trying to figure out how, like most people, how do we make ends meet, how do we keep being feasible in this world, and it was suggested, you know, taking side hustles, the whole part-time gig economy, and I’m not a fan of that, honestly. I’ve done it before. I think it’s a little over-glorified, and I was getting too old. I didn’t want to do that. So, I came to the realization that my work through Maryland Marketing Source was slow at the time, as it was for so many of us, that maybe it should be my side hustle, and I should look to pursue something more reliable to make sure that food is on the table and mortgages are paid, things like that. I mean, it’s just practicality. So, it was scary because, like you said, I’ve never known anything else. I couldn’t remember having to work for someone else since my early-30s, which is young to just be out in the world pretending I know what I was doing. So, it was scary. It was scary, and I didn’t know how being in a small pond as we were, how that was going to translate to being in this big pond. Like, am I going to drown? Am I going to stand out? So actually, when I did join DAP, I did not leave Maryland Marketing Source right away. So, I rode tandem for a while, as I slowly transitioned away from Maryland Marketing Source, helping out, doing what I could do, and then when it reached a point where it was a bit much for me as well, and I said, it’s time. And you say goodbye. That was last year.

Karen: That was just last year. So, what’s interesting is having had my own business, you know, from 2000 to 2017, so I had, you know, I had 17 years where I was my own boss, and 2017 I ended up working at a full-service company, still leading qual specifically. But I did that out of necessity. I did that—I made the decision to start working for someone else when my oldest son hit send on his college applications, and I had this, like, you know this… [laugh] I don’t—I can’t even, like, I go back to it, and I already get panicked, right? You can see the freeze. Those of you are seeing me, you can see the—

Michelle: Deep breaths.

Karen: —“Oh no, I can’t ride the I can’t ride the ebbs and flows in self-employment anymore. I need a consistent, steady paycheck for my own sanity.” And I remember talking to somebody up at the Creative Problem Solving Institute, you know, a few years later when I was no longer in that role, again, and then I was like, okay, I’m finding my next opportunity again, and she gave me an affirmation card that I have posted up here, which is, “You are self-aware, and you know when change is needed.” And it changed my whole outlook on the career journey. Because I think a lot of us, these things either happen to us or they happen around us, but I knew that change was needed, and I never viewed kind of, you know, taking down my shingle as anything other than, “I needed this. I needed this badly.” And I think maybe that’s part of why, also your story resonated with me because I’m like, I applaud you because you knew what you needed. And I give you a lot of credit. I think there’s a lot of people that are afraid to face that very scary time, and maybe they’re facing one right now, but maybe that change is exactly what they need. 

Michelle: Thank you. I think without change, we tend to stagnate and we get comfortable in what we’re doing, even if we’re unhappy or even if we’re scared, and even if it’s not meeting our needs, at least it’s familiar, and that tends to make people most comfortable.

Karen: Yeah, yeah.

Michelle: And I also know, at my stage in my career, most people are going from corporate to LLC to free up time and to give themselves some freedom, so I recognize that I sort of did it backwards [laugh].

Karen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what’s interesting is, you know, the next change I made, obviously coming here at Greenbook, which is, I get to stay in the industry, connected with these people that I kind of know, and many of whom I really care deeply about, but I’m not executing research anymore. And so, you know, when the opportunity came up for me to start doing things like the podcast and the exchange, and I’m like, “Wait, talk to people for a living? That I can do.” [laugh]. It’s like, that I know how to do.

Michelle: But you don’t owe a report at the end of this, so look at you.

Karen: I know, no reports. It’s fantastic. So, tell me more about, like—so that’s—you know it’s wonderful to know that you’re here, and I do hope it’s going well. Talk to us about what it’s like there. Like, did you walk into a team? Did you have to start from scratch? Like, what were the, kind of, foundations in place at DAP? Or, you know, what was it like once you got there? 

Michelle: It was so overwhelming. I mean, cubicles [laugh]. What was that like? It was cool. I walked into a team, a small team. We’ve always run very lean. We work hard and we try not to overspend on fluff. So, we have a lean team. I had a director above me, and I had an analyst reporting to me, and it was great. We all vibed really well, but change happens quickly at the corporate level. I was not prepared. My director left for career advancement at actually, one of our sister organizations, and the person who reported to me moved into a different part of our team and reported to someone else. So, for a second or two, it was just me, and I was like, well, I’m used to this. I can rise to this occasion, and I really leaned back on my experience as a small business owner, just doing everything. I have to wear all the hats. And we hired a new director and she brought on another research manager, and then we were going through transitionary times again. So, it’s been a lot of getting to know new people, seeing other people in other departments coming and going. I just, I wasn’t aware of just how quickly the entire world changes when a person changes their position on your team. It was really—it rocked me, but also I felt really confident in my ability to handle the situation because I was used to it. And in fact, even I think it was my second full quarter, maybe my third full quarter at the organization, I won an award. I won a rockstar of the quarter award because, as I said, I—sounds very braggy—I just seamlessly kept research going because that’s what we do.

Karen: Well, and that’s really interesting. So, you think about the skills that—transferable skills, which people talk about all the time—but what do you think the skills are that you had as, like, a business owner, what do you think the skills that you had there are that manifested, that enabled you to, kind of, you know, become the rock star at this new role?

Michelle: First and foremost was confidence. As much as I was in unfamiliar territory, do I ask for permission before I do things? How do I set up a meeting, through Microsoft Outlook, like, all of those things, I knew I had the confidence to execute, so I just did. And being familiar with all of the methodologies we utilized already, I knew I could execute those as well. What was more confusing to me, or what I guess gave me more pause was the hierarchy, was, do I need to report this to someone? Do I need to talk to others or can I just leap? And leaping was scary because for the first time—outside, of course, you know our clients—I was very, very worried about what someone else thought about what I was doing. And that was the most unnerving part for me. But at the same time, it was easier because while I was doing all this work, I wasn’t handling payroll [laugh] or dealing with bills or some irate some—like, there was so much that wasn’t on my plate already that this actually felt so much easier.

Karen: Yeah. It’s funny, that is probably, of all the things we’re talking about so far, that is one of the most relatable for me. So I, when I first—you know, I’d had a boss in my 20s, and then I start my own business, and then, you know, 17 years later, I’m now working for somebody else again. And I had been autonomous for so long, and there was this time of, like, getting, you know, like, here’s some output, here’s a deliverable, and getting it, like, reviewed by my boss, and I was like, “Oh, no. Like, that’s just not me.” [laugh]. And then, like, you know, and then he’d give me, like, some very good, kind of, constructive advice or something, and I’m like, “Oh, you’re kind of right.” And it was like, this very sort of, like, you have to set your ego aside on some level and be like, okay, this is the system I’m in now, and recognize it’s actually really helpful. And yes, the fact that I—for me, it wasn’t payroll, but for me it was like, bill paying, right? Accounts receivable and accounts payable, like, to not have that was probably the biggest perk of working for someone else, which I don’t know that people who don’t either have their own businesses or are entrepreneurial that way, simply freelance, like, I don’t think you understand how important it is when you’re not dealing with money [laugh].

Michelle: Your own money, other people’s money, so much that. And I was really grateful, I found, I learned to have not necessarily just someone to report to, but to have people to collaborate with. Because one of—QRCA was created because people were lonely because the people needed someone to bounce ideas off, so they came together to create, to build that community together. And you don’t have all that in small business ownership. Even with my business partner, it’s not the same. So, I was really looking forward to having teams, and, you know, the Venn diagram of who can talks to who, it was really exciting. And I still get the—I enjoy, I walk in and I hear the buzz of voices again, and I’m like, these are people. The extroverted me really needed that especially after Covid.

Karen: Seriously, right? And, yeah, I think that’s one of the things that also, you know, I work at home still, and you know, the whole idea that I have a team now, like, I do get energized, even if I’m on the phone. Like today, I have calls every hour on the hour, but I’m energized each time because I’m like, I work with these people every day. Some days we vent, some days we are inspirational and we plan. And the synergy that you get working with other people when you’re so used to being self-employed and having to, like, be on all the time and having to be in charge all the time, like, again, it’s different, but it if people who are facing that kind of a change can face that fear. I also want to go back to something else you said because I think I want to talk about community, the community that we had a QRCA, which is somewhat, you know, what we shared and why people came together. But I was reminded of our QRCA Moms group that we start—you know, we have on Facebook. Like, we all when Michelle and I met, like, we’re in the throes of, like, we have these jobs that are, you know, we’re out there, we’re road warriors, and we have children, and we see each other, like, once a year, and that’s just not good enough, you know? 

Michelle: Not at all. 

Karen: Like, it’s not, right? So then, fortunately, hey, look, the internet gives us the ability to have this group. And so, I started thinking about you, and I was thinking about this group of people that came together. We do the same thing. We’re in the same life phase, and how important is community and how is that replicated today? Because I don’t know that group is as active because we’ve all kind of aged out, and we don’t have the same need. You know, our children are a little older, and I’m sure there’s younger women who are, like, I’ve talked to younger women in corporations all the time that they’re like, how do you work when you’re a mom? And I’m like, I don’t know what to tell you. I did it.

Michelle: How did we do it [laugh]?

Karen: We did it. We figured it out.

Michelle: I will be honest. One of the things that I think people always know about me, and I hope they remember, is that in all aspects of life, community is everything, whether it’s professional, personal, it doesn’t matter. Community is everything. And I think we represented to each other—we were for each other—several lifelines. And especially, I think as mothers, we doubt ourselves so much, we second-guess ourselves so much, probably less so than we do professionally— 

Karen: Yeah, yeah.

Michelle: And having each other to validate, to uplift, to advise, it made such a difference. And I don’t think it’s just because extroverts, I think it benefits everyone when they know there’s someone else out there who can relate to you, or at least care, you know? Knowing other people cared is… is everything. And I get that on the corporate level, now. We’re all in this together.

Karen: So, let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about kind of the team you have in place, but really also, like, the work you’re doing because now I’m sitting there thinking, I just keep thinking about caulk, right? I keep thinking about home improvement and, you know, sealants and adhesives. What kind of work—so you were always a little bit quant and a little bit qual. Like, you always were—you had that quant expertise that not every, you know, qualitative consultant has, so that was something I also admired about you. What kinds of wor—like, what are the methods that you’re employing? Like, how do you get the insights you need for an audience, for those types of products?

Michelle: The same way. So, I do in-person qualitative research, a lot of prototype testing, a lot of in-depth interviews. I have been covered in spray texture, [laugh] I have been covered in caulk, I’ve had prototypes get broken right in front of me, and there’s a mirror, a one-way mirror, behind me, and I’m like, “Please don’t be mad at me.” And they laugh at me every time because when we are doing product testing, and I tarp the heck out of a facility, and if I see a smidge of something somewhere, I’m like, they always talk about, Michelle’s going to clean that up right now, in the middle of everything. And I am because I respect the heck out of every facility I walk into.

Karen: I bet you are, like, the best client. I really—[laugh].

Michelle: I try to be [laugh]. I’m just like, “Not the carpet.” [laugh]. 

Karen: [laugh]. Awesome. 

Michelle: So, in person, we do online, you know, virtual focus groups as well. We do internet, online surveys. So, it’s the same thing. We’re trying to do more in the field, get on-site observations going. That’s very important to my team. They want to see people using products, working to help find ways to innovate because innovation is incredibly important to DAP.

Karen: Yeah, that’s so cool. And I’m picturing, like, shop-alongs, but I’m also picturing, like, ethnography, and I’m getting really excited for what the future could hold with, you know, just seeing people in those environments. I’m excited for you. That’s going to be fun. 

Michelle: Thank you. Yeah, it’s fascinating. It’s fascinating. And I’ve learned so much about home improvement because I am not Andy [laugh].

Karen: [laugh]. 

Michelle: I was so worried, I was just like, but now I can use caulk, and I can pronounce it very clearly. 

Karen: That was excellent, by the way, well done [laugh]. So, tell me, like, what’s something—what can you share that’s not propri—nothing proprietary ever, but is there kind of an example of something that was like, particularly insightful, that you think made a difference in the business?

Michelle: Goodness and everything is proprietary, as we always know. One of my favorite things to do now are these quick Pulses. We have a—it’s a platform called OnePulse—am I allowed to plug? I’m sorry—

Karen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you’re fine. You’re fine.

Michelle: —and it’s great because sometimes my internal clients, they just need a couple of questions answered real quick, and we don’t want to do this whole survey or go online, you know, we’re trying to figure out the best way to spend money and gain insight. And so, this platform gives us the opportunity to just send out to this panel just two or three questions, and it’s really been helpful when between branding, between product teams, that we’re going back and forth, does this need to be up higher or lower? Should this be blue or should it be green? Should it be this font or this font? And we get really sometimes bogged down into those details because we want to make sure that we’re connecting with our end-users. And it’s sometimes if I just say, “Let me run a quick Pulse for you.” And we get that information, and within a couple of hours sometimes, they have what they need and we can move on. Because we all get caught up in that paralysis by analysis, and for us, it’s always over analysis. I don’t know—I’m assuming all organizations are like that because you want just to make sure, like, “What if this apostrophe curves the wrong way, are they going to not buy our product?” Let me help you [laugh].

Karen: Yeah, yeah. No. I love that. It sounds—and I don’t know anything about OnePulse, but it sounds, to me, I think about for, you know, for suppliers out there in the world who are listening, like, the business need for that. Like, if you’re representing, kind of, the client side, like, the need for you is, you know, quick insight into a small decision. Because a lot of times we set out to do research on bigger decisions, expand on that. Is that accurate? Is that kind of oversimplification? You tell me.

Michelle: No, it’s not. And for us now—when I worked for Maryland Marketing Source, when I owned Maryland Marketing Source, we would get contacted to conduct a project, a study, and it wasn’t always part of a long-term project. It was very rare. And I loved it when it happened that we were a part of a full scale, here’s our strategy for something in the future. Three years together, we’ll get there. Now, it was always like the bits and pieces. Being a part of a process now, seeing how things develop from, “Hey, here’s a cool idea. What do you think?” to getting to product launch is such a multi-faceted several step process in which research plays critical roles throughout. It’s really cool to be a part of that development and then see what happens. Either you know what, this project, this isn’t the right call, not at this time, and I can help hopefully save us money by saying we shouldn’t go in this direction right now. Or some products launch. You know, it’s rare, as a small business owner in this industry, that you get to see the final results. You know, we joked, back when reports were printed, that it would just go up on a shelf and collect dust. And I’ve had clients who must have emailed me seven times one year asking me to send a report that [laugh] I had sent him seven times the year before, and... Give us a moment to remember that trauma [laugh].

Karen: Yes, yes, yes. 

Michelle: I get to see it firsthand.

Karen: I’m thinking about the taking it down off the shelf, making photocopies, putting it in an envelope and getting it shipped, like, calling FedEx by the end of—I mean, honestly.

Michelle: The stress, and putting it in binders. And is it color? Oh, this didn’t print right. No, and it’s all right here. We work hand in hand. If there’s a problem, someone just walks over or messages me, “Hey, let’s talk about this,” and we can get immediate results there. And then I’ve seen products launch that I get to say I helped. And that wasn’t as common before, and it’s really validating.

Karen: And that was actually, that was one of the sort of dopamine hits as an independent consultant, right, is when you did, you’re like, oh, I worked on that package when you could see tangibly, or, oh, I was involved in the ideation that led to that product launch, or you know, that line extension. So, I can just imagine the reward is great. So, I love that you’re sharing that. Thank you. Question I have for you is, you know, it sounds like this platform is very, like, very DIY, right? So, now you’re in this, like, space where are you… are you—is it—like, are you doing DIY? Are you subcontracting? And I don’t ask you this, so like, you know, we solicit all these, you know that, you know, sell to Michelle, things. That’s not my point. My point is to try to understand your type of an organization, and how much is it falling on your shoulders versus how much can you outsource? 

Michelle: We do a great bit of both. I try to take on as much as I can because I can, and I can do qualitative, I can do quantitative, I can program a survey, I can analyze it and put together a deck, I can do everything in the qualitative world, so it’s great. And of course, corporations always trying to save money, especially in the now times again. So, I try to find ways to save money without, you know, cutting corners. But at the same time, we need good platforms. We need good survey platforms. If we want to do a community, we need a good online community platform. I need great recruiters for projects that I can—and some of our target audiences are difficult to reach and find, and they’re not opted in to participate in research. 

Karen: Yeah, yeah. 

Michelle: So, we do still rely heavily on our research partners, whether it’s for a full project implementation or if it’s for bits and pieces.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. But you do what you can internally because it sounds to me, like, also, you know, thinking about your business hat, like, you understand the need to save money, where you need to save because you’ve been a business owner.

Michelle: Mm-hm.

Karen: That’s probably another one of those transferable skills, right, is the ability to critically think what’s really an area where it should save the business money, versus, you know, somebody who’s never had to make those decisions before. 

Michelle: Right. And I do where I can, but if there’s a project where I don’t have the bandwidth in my schedule, or if I just don’t feel like I can produce the best results for this. I’m comfortable talking to my team about that, and they’re comfortable taking my advice on that because they know I would do this if I thought it was right. And the one thing, one thing that has not changed, no matter what role I’ve ever held, is the results are what matters. The objective. We always work backwards, right? What are the research objectives, what are the goals, what do we hope to learn at the end of whatever project we’re working on, and we work backwards from there. So, if we work backwards, and I end up not being a part of that, I know I need to step away because it’s what helps us get the insights we need. And I’m here to support DAP, not me.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, that’s awesome. You know, one of the questions I had for you was, you know, are there any kind of philosophies or kind of business practices that you used to have when you were in charge, right, when you were running the show, that you’ve kind of brought into your new role, or are there kind of philosophies in place there that you’re like, oh, that’s actually really good. I can adopt that one, you know, whether it’s a philosophy or kind of like a business value or something that kind of guides you in your work?

Michelle: Yes, definitely both. Definitely both. One thing I’ve learned is to chill out, [laugh] which I know it’s hilarious if you think about who I am as a person and how I have very little chill to my name. But everything’s not an emergency. Everything doesn’t have to happen right this second and if I turn off my computer and work on it tomorrow, that’s a blessing, right? That is something that—and that wasn’t afforded to me before, when everything depended on just my ability to get everything done right when it needed to get done. And though there are still long days, long weeks, long hours, I value the fact that there are times where I get reminded it’ll be okay, you have people here to help, and tomorrow is another day. And as a small business owner, you don’t think that way [laugh]. 

Karen: You never get that relief, right? Everything is urgent. I remember the days when I was self-employed of, like, I don’t even know if I can go to bed. I don’t even know if I can go to bed tonight because something has to get done. I will sleep when it’s done.

Michelle: When it’s done. 

Karen: When it’s done. And I think that— 

Michelle: And I’ve had a few nights like that for sure, and also traveling for qualitative research. Like, you still have—and I enjoy those, but I enjoy them more because they’re less frequent. The one thing I have pulled with me is my commitment to working still with small businesses, with women-owned, minority-owned businesses. I value all the partnerships that I’ve been able to cultivate through working with DAP. Some were already in place when I joined, some that I’ve cultivated along the way, and I hope they realize how much I value them and the work they did, especially those, if you’ve survived Covid, if you survived the fraught situation out in the world, if you’re still working hard and trying your best to provide, you know, quality work, I want to work with you.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. I love that too because I think that, as you were talking earlier about, you know, kind of, just at your company—I’m talking about, you know, Maryland Marketing Sources—how many recruiters you must have known, right? And how many you know, other facilities you probably had relationships with because of people who were doing projects in different markets and things like that. So, I was thinking about your network when you were talking earlier about some of the methodologies you’re employing, and I was thinking that must have been another asset that you brought to DAP, is that you had a network of not just other qualitative researchers or quantitative consultants, but everybody in the supply chain pipeline, really. You had access everywhere, so— 

Michelle: And because of that, I could really focus on what DAP was already doing well and what they weren’t when it came to working with partners. When I first joined, and I’ll be honest, I was looking at some of the invoices and had a lot of question marks about the costs. And I said, “Do you have proposals? Do you have them itemed out?” And they said, “No, they just tell us how much it costs and we pay that.” And I was just like, “Okay, we’re going to start requesting line items. We’re going to start looking at things because I appreciate everything you’re doing, but we are overpaying.” And I want to be fair always, and I will always pay a fair price, but I want to make sure that it’s fair for everyone involved. And coming in, knowing how—even just the general lump sum numbers, I’m like, “That’s too much.” They’re like, “How can you just look at that and know?” I’m like, “Because I could have created that.” [laugh].

Karen: Yeah, yeah. 

Michelle: I’d done the pricing. I’ve tried to fit into fixed-unit pricing and all of the weird ways they tried to make us quantify qualitative research or how much things cost. And I was really proud of how I was able to help streamline that process for us.

Karen: It sounds to me, and what I love hearing, is that they also had a lot of respect for you when you joined. Because the way you’re able to, kind of, you know, take one part confidence, right, but you’re able to say things like, “We’re doing it this way now,” was it always an easy sell for people? Did that respect come immediately, or did you work for it kind of over the last two years or so?

Michelle: I’m going to say both. One thing I do that really drew me to DAP, especially after the initial interviews, was just how much they respect and trust and rely upon their primary research. They rely on secondary research as well, but everything is, “Has this been researched? Have you done work on that? We can’t move forward.” And it’s actually built into the product development process. At certain steps along the way is when you have to stop and conduct an IHUT, or stop and conduct some messaging testing. This is where we have to go and product test. So, they really value it. So, by the nature of, “Hi, this is our new insights manager,” they were like, “Okay, if you were hired for that role, we believe you’re qualified to do it.” But in any new role position, you have to convince people, like, hey, this is my value. This is my worth. So, it’s like I had to prove, almost like to my mother all over again in some ways, like, look, I can do it. I really, really can.

Karen: [laugh]. Oh, I hear that. Well, it’s just one of those things where I feel like—anyway this is a whole sidebar conversation. I’m like, so—

Michelle: I know [laugh].

Karen: On the couch with Karen. You know, we have this whole, like, we know we’re good at what we do, and yet there are times when we know we need to convince somebody, by the way, I’m good at what I do. And I don’t know if that’s a female thing or if that’s a daughter of strong people thing. I don’t really know what that is.

Michelle: Well, it’s tricky because with any new job, but especially one where you’re joining a team of people who’ve been working together, there’s many of them, what’s the culture? What’s the vibe? How do I fit in? And qualitative researchers—researchers in general—I’ll say, we’re quirky people. We’re interesting folks, and I know I tend—[laugh] what did you call me earlier? Irreverent. I tend to push limit, push buttons. I had to learn to tone myself down a little bit and pull myself back, which has been a struggle, but it’s really been interesting for me and effective to try to find a balance I’ve never been forced to try to achieve before. Yes, be bold, be assertive, but, yeah, you don’t always have to be in charge, and there’s such a reprieve in that.

Karen: Well, I think some of the reprieve is, I don’t lose sleep at night. Like, now that I work for another organization—I’m sure our managing director does as a business owner should, and I remember, you know, talking to, kind of, you back in the day—and actually, I remember talking to Missy Carvin’s mother back in the day—of the people that lose sleep when they employ others.

Michelle: Yes.

Karen: That’s very different. When you show up for work and you are not the one at the end of the day that’s responsible for other humans, I think there is a big relief in that. I feel for the small businesses that are, like, you know, these people I care about are relying on me.

Michelle: That was one of the hardest parts of Covid, honestly, was not just, how are we going to stay afloat, how are we going to keep the business going, how are we going to pay our bills, but how are the people that rely on us going to do the same? And the pressure of that was monumental.

Karen: Yeah.

Michelle: That was huge.

Karen: And I also think that the other part—so one part is, kind of, the corporate responsibility. So, that’s alleviated. I think that when we talk about your irreverence, or, gosh, up in the New York area, I was a part of a spin-off—all these QRCA spin-off groups, which are kind of hilarious when you think about it—but like, we called ourselves the Research Renegades, and we would meet in the New York area, even though we were all, like, New York QRCA members, we’d also have this other little side meeting. Anyway, smiling fondly, thinking about all that, too. But it’s like, we aren’t necessarily people in general that, like, conformity, right? We kind of like being responsible for ourselves and having this autonomy at work. And I remember that tension when I first went to work for somebody else, where I’m like, oh, I’m being told what to do. Oh, I don’t like this. And there were some really uneasy times for me in the beginning where I was like, I want to, I wish I owned my own schedule the way I used to, you know. Or I wish I—you know, what? If there were times when business was ebbing and flowing and you just came off of a peak, you’d be like, I’m in the lull. I’m going out to lunch a lot more, you know, this, kind of like, autonomy that comes from self-employment, but you make up for it with the other things, the relief and the security working full time. So definitely, trade-offs. Are there anything else that you notice, any other trade-offs with what you’ve done? 

Michelle: I definitely feel that balance. I might have been called abrasive early on [laugh]. Me?

Karen: What?

Michelle: Can’t possibly be. No, but there is definitely that trade-off. And I will say, it saddens me, but some of the trade-off is having not just dealt with Covid, but seeing other things in the future for the research industry, for the small business world, I knew what we were doing was not going to be sustainable longer-term than we were going to hope it would be. And so, I had to could tell myself I was like, so maybe you need to punch a clock. Maybe you need to answer to other people, and maybe you think you know better, and you need to shut up and just follow the instructions that are given to you. And that’s hard for people like us to just swallow and take, but if I do that, everyone’s happy. I’m not responsible for the results any more than I would be, and I go home, [laugh] you know? I go about my life. And it’s just, it’s very reassuring. And DAP does take care of its people. They really, really value us, and it’s nice to feel that reciprocated.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel that way, also, just for the record. I feel very valued at Greenbook—

Michelle: Shout out to Greenbook.

Karen: And I know my team is—I know, my team is wonderful. Like, I love working with the.people they have filled me up, right? So, you know, it’s time we have to wrap, but I would love to get, sort of like, words of wisdom from you for anybody who is struggling out there, and maybe are like, is it time to make a change? Is it time to explore what else is out there? Because I know that there are people that are listening that are like, I don’t know. Advice you have for people who might be making sort of a life change and making that kind of a trade-off, what would you suggest?

Michelle: I would say, think about it really hard and focus on trying to convince yourself why you should do it, not why you shouldn’t. There’s a lot of, “Oh, I can’t do that. I can’t do that.” And that’s how people tend to start off. But to try to say, “Why can I? What would be the benefits I would gain?” And that’s what helped me switch from needing a part-time job to needing a different full-time job is, just what do I need to improve my life, to make me comfortable and to fulfill me, as you said. And one day, it was just, like, something else. And I have a lot of relief and comfort in knowing that I’m with DAP now.

Karen: That’s such great framing and I’m so grateful you shared, so I’m also, like, all right, I’m so glad I asked that question because what a great way to look at it, you know? What do I need? What good would come if I do this scary thing? You know, what is in it for me that will change my life for the better?

Michelle: It’s not selfish. It’s important. And I think, again, as mothers, as entrepreneurs, we’re told to sacrifice ourselves always, and sometimes that’s not the right choice.

Karen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hear, hear. Gosh, Michelle, thank you. I love this conversation so much, and I know we’re low on time. Anything you wish I’d asked you that I didn’t get to?

Michelle: Um… I don’t know. What I’m really proud of at my time at DAP?

Karen: Yes. Right, please go.

Michelle: I am excited because we had started an inclusion council at DAP Global, and I work at the corporate headquarters, obviously, but we have made, I feel like, a lot of great strides in making a more inclusive, welcoming organization. And I’m really proud of that because that speaks to me on a personal level, not just professional. Yeah, I was really glad for that.

Karen: Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s another perk. Like, you know, when I used to do a lot more facilitating and I’d go into a corporation, and I’d see tasks force and initiatives like that at the corporate level, and I’d be like, oh, if I worked here, I’d volunteer to be on that. I’d sit on that. You know, I’d go to those meetings or whatever. And I do think that that’s something that, if anybody’s interviewing, they should really think about that stuff, like, what are some of these committees or tasks force or initiatives you’re undertaking that I could get involved in? Because especially for somebody like you, super involved in the QRCA, somebody like me, super involved in the QRCA, it would be good to be fulfilled in that way also, and find that kind of purpose in your work outside of just your role.

Michelle: Yes, and to feed different parts of you. 

Karen: Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Very well said, very well said. Well, here we are at the top of the hour. Thank you so very much for joining me, Michelle. What a pleasure to catch up. I wish our paths could cross again. Are you still able to do things out there in the world, or am I just going to have to get you on stage at IIEX? 

Michelle: I mean, I can’t say no to a microphone [laugh]. 

Karen: [laugh].

Michelle: I am hoping—I did submit a proposal to speak at QRCA this year. I am—

Karen: Oh, cool. 

Michelle: —back involved. So, we’ll see about that. I might be there.

Karen: Very cool.

Michelle: But honestly, let’s have coffee—

Karen: Yeah—

Michelle: —virtual coffee.

Karen: —let’s have coffee, and let’s see— 

Michelle: So, great to see you and catch up with you.

Karen: It’s great to see you as well. Thank you so much for joining me.

Michelle: Thanks for having me.

Karen: And really good luck to you in this role, I’m excited to watch your journey unfold from here.

Michelle: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Karen: You’re welcome. Thank you to everybody who’s tuned in listening to us. We so value you and appreciate your time. Thank you to our editor, Big Bad Audio. You know, Brigette, I just can’t thank you enough. And to the entire team at Greenbook who makes these things happen. I will see you next time, everybody. Have a great weekend. That’s it for this episode of the Greenbook Podcast.