Cultural Relevance in Branding with Kira Greenberg

In this episode of the Greenbook Podcast, host Karen Lynch sits down with Kira Greenberg, Senior Manager of Brand Insights for Jameson at Pernod Ricard USA. With a background in anthropology and deep qualitative research, Kira brings a unique perspective to brand strategy and cultural relevance. She shares how storytelling functions not just as a tool for communication but as a foundation for strategic brand decisions.

The conversation spans her category shift from media to spirits, working within a multinational matrix, and the nuanced role of AI in modern research. If you're in insights, marketing, or strategy, this episode will leave you thinking differently about how research connects people, culture, and brands.

Key Discussion Points:

• The power of storytelling in strategic brand insights
• Shifting categories: from Warner Bros. to Pernod Ricard
• Cultural nuance and the art of connecting with diverse audiences
• AI’s evolving role in qualitative research workflows
• Why the future of insights depends on deep strategic partnership

Resources & Links:

• Pernod Ricard USA
• Jameson Whiskey
• Greenbook's IIEX North America

You can reach out to Kira Greenberg on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Kira Greenberg for being our guest. Thanks also to our production team and our editor at Big Bad Audio.

Transcript

Karen: Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Greenbook Podcast. It’s Karen Lynch. I’m happy to be hosting today and so glad to be here with you and with our guest today. I am speaking with Kira Greenberg, who I’ve known for a few years now. She’s with—currently with—Pernod Ricard as the Senior Manager, Brand Insights on the Jameson brand, which I will talk a little bit about my personal connection to that brand and the affinity I have for Ireland, but that’s a separate story. So, before I even talk too much about that and we can enjoy the category, Kira, welcome to the Greenbook Podcast.

Kira: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.

Karen: And I’m so happy you are here. And shout out for Kira, who is taking this call from a beach house on the Jersey Shore, which has me, if you’ve been listening long enough, you know how I am, people, and you know that I’m like, “I’m on my way down.” So, [laugh] I hope it’s a sunnier weekend than I think it might prove to be for you, but—

Kira: I hope so too.

Karen: —anyway, so glad you’re here. Why don’t you, Kira, take a minute and just tell everybody a little bit about your role, kind of, just by way of background. Tell them, you know, yourself, your current role, and then we’ll move into the conversation.

Kira: Yeah, absolutely. So, as Karen said, I am the Brand Insights Lead for the Jameson team, on at Pernod Ricard USA. And I’ve been here about a year and a half. So, I’ve sort of, you know, settled into the role and have carved out a space very much as what I would call, like, a thought partner to the brand team. So, doing a lot of work to help them, you know, creatively, to help them strategically, and sort of just, you know, be there as almost an internal strategist.

Karen: I love the phrase ‘thought partner.’ I don’t know that I’ve heard that before, but that’s what a strategist does, right? It helps people do their best critical thinking. So—

Kira: Yeah.

Karen: I like that.

Kira: Thank you. 

Karen: Yeah, very, very cool. So, you know, in kind of pulling up some research for this episode, I’m like, yes, they’re there—the company is headquartered in Paris. So, it’s really interesting to me: headquartered in Paris, you’re working here in the New York area, and this is, like, a traditional Irish brand. Talk to me about that multinational dynamic. Does that come into play in your work? Is there kind of something that’s formative in what you do that has to do with the global nature of all of it?

Kira: Yeah, it’s a good question. So, we’re actually, like, a pretty matrixed organization, right? We do have headquarters in Paris. And then, you know, I work on Jameson, but the whole company, we have so many different brands, right? We have scotches, we have tequila, as we have, you know, brands where their brand teams are sort of sitting in other markets as well. And so, honestly, my background is in anthropology and in, like, deep qualitative research, and so a lot of what I think I do also is just really, like, paying attention to, you know, cultural difference and cultural nuance and making sure that sort of thinking is, you know, present in the things that I do. But honestly, like, it’s just great to be able to have so many different perspectives in the room. And, you know, oftentimes it’s also about—I think, specifically for Jameson—understanding the differences between a global market versus a US market. You know, the work that I do is specifically just for the US, and so it’s, you know, working with those global teams to figure out, okay, what are those cultural nuances? How is the US different? What are the ways that we want to maybe approach this differently? And then how do we work with the global teams to, you know, really, like, get alignment on that? 

Karen: Yeah. Many years ago when I was an independent qualitative researcher, I was working very closely with a personal care brand that had headquarters overseas, and we had to understand—we often went out and we went in homes and we did kind of shop-alongs, largely to kind of point out the differences to corporate, right? It was like, this is what this market feels or thinks or how they behave around a certain topic of, you know, personal care compared to overseas. So, there was a lot of that kind of explaining the differences in some of the work that the team that I worked with did. So, I totally get that it resonates completely.

Kira: Yeah.

Karen: Kira, let’s talk a little bit about your journey to this position, right? Because, you know, just a few years ago you were at Warner Brothers Discovery, which is, you know, what had brought you on to the stage at IIEX North America, so we’ll talk about that in a minute. But let’s talk about some of the milestones in your career and how you got to this current position.

Kira: Yeah, it’s been a journey for sure. That is the word I would use as well. But, you know, like I alluded to, my background is in anthropology, specifically cultural and linguistic anthropology. So, I’ve done a lot of work historically on really wanting to understand… wanting to understand culture, wanting to understand, you know, shared culture, things like media, things like advertising, and, you know, the ways that brands are really, like, communicating and showing up in the world because those are the things that I think shape culture and people engage with them and they talk about it, and you know, I find it to be really fascinating. So, I also was at a very tiny qualitative research agency for a little while and learned that this was a career that I felt really passionate about. And it feels, you know, really awesome to be able to just ask questions and, like, think creatively for a living, so that’s cool. And I wound up after that, yes, at Warner Brothers Discovery, although it was Turner, and then it was Warner Media, and then it was, [laugh] you know, Warner whatever. It went through, like, 17 mergers. And I think there, I learned a lot about being on the brand side of things and how that’s really different from being agency side, obviously. But you know, the work becomes more of that thought partnership strategic type of work, while also needing to, you know, sort of anticipate business needs, anticipate research questions, and really being able to, like, help bring insights to life for teams that may not necessarily be so research savvy. Some of them are, but right, like, wanting to make sure stories are simple and easily digestible and actionable. So, I learned a lot there, working sort of across the business, sometimes on product questions, you know, around Max or HBO Max, and sometimes on, like, more marketing and multicultural marketing. So honestly, played many different roles at that company. And I, unfortunately, was caught up in a round layoffs a couple of years ago, which I think is, you know, standard for the industry, and it happens to the best of us. And I’m very lucky and grateful that I fairly quickly landed myself at Pernod. Which… I have… you know, it’s been a really, really interesting shift. Obviously, it is an entirely different industry with so many things that I have had to learn really, really quickly. And now I feel quite settled in it and I’m still getting to, you know, do a lot of the same work that I was, and like, bringing some of those skills that I learned, both at my qual agency and also at Warner. But I’ve also learned a lot of new things, and I’m getting to do some new things, too, like, you know, work with, like, tangible products and understand how people shop and you know, things like that, which I just, like, never really thought about before. So, that’s been really cool. 

Karen: I think I just—I have so many follow up questions now, which this is what I told you. I said, “I’m going to have a lot—

Kira: [laugh].

Karen: —“Forget the brief. I’m going to have questions.” So, you know, we were just at our IIEX North America event, and I had a fireside chat with a woman who she actually, kind of, switched categories as well. And now she’s kind of in the medical space. And, you know, still doing insights work, obviously, but it’s just in more of, like, the medical healthcare space. And she had been in, like, financial services. So, the idea of, like, switching categories, I think for a lot of people, they might have the mindset of, you know, I’m in CPG; I’m going to stay in CPG, or I’m in entertainment; I’m going to stay in entertainment. But I think now I’m hearing kind of two people say, the switch, the change of categories is actually kind of disrupting your brain, perhaps, and bringing new thinking. Is that accurate? How would you describe that categorical switch?

Kira: I think that’s a really good way of putting it. Love to have my brain disrupted, [laugh] I guess. And I know we’re going to talk a little bit more about, you know, sort of creativity and storytelling in a little bit, but something I’ve been thinking about is how important those soft skills are to switching categories because those are the things that are, you know, resonant and relevant, no matter what. Things can be learned, right? Like categories can be learned. It might not be easy, but it is learnable, nuances and, you know, et cetera, but I think the thing that is really wonderful about insights is that, like, those sorts of soft creative skills, storytelling, framework building, you know, strategy, those sorts of things, are so crucial across categories. And I think, like, for me anyway, I can’t speak to everybody’s experience, but for me, like, a lot of the work that I was doing at Warner was also, sort of like, broad… not—like, sort of, you know, future oriented. So some, like, future trend work, some just, like, general, you know, how are people’s values shifting, like, just sort of paying attention to culture and things around me. And really honing those skills has been a huge, huge thing for my role now, right, because as—you know, I was doing sort of like broader consumer insights, and now as a more sort of specific brand insights person, I’m getting to use those consumer insights sorts of skills, like paying attention to the world around me and, you know, sensing shifts in the wind and all of those sorts of things to help anticipate where consumers and culture are heading. 

Karen: Yeah. Really, really cool. And again, like, I keep going back in my head sort of romantically towards the brand itself and, you know, our family’s trip to Ireland and kind of the Jameson experience, which was built into—you know, between that and Guinness, it’s like, we’re like— 

Kira: Did you go down to Cork— 

Karen: Yeah.

Kira: Or were you in Dublin?

Karen: Yes, we were in Cork.

Kira: Yeah. Okay.

Karen: And… anyway, and so I keep smiling because I keep thinking about this, like, how this was a part of my family’s itinerary. So, talk about, like, brand affinity. We built it into our family’s trip to Ireland. My children were all, kind of, young adults at that time, and… like, what’s that about, you know? Like, just how important it is as a brand that’s, like, oh, we’re going to make that stop, you know? We were on our way up, we were, you know, we did the whole drive around and then up to Dublin, but that was one stop on our way. I was like, yeah, we’re doing this. So anyway, what a cool brand that you’re working on. And you know, you just must have—before we get into the storytelling—you must just have frequent encounters with brand affinity is what I would imagine.

Kira: Totally. Yeah. It’s such an iconic brand. And, you know, before I joined this company, like, I was not entrenched in this world at all. Like I, you know, was not really thinking deeply about spirits or BevAlc at all, and I must admit, like, I was a little bit surprised at how much affinity people have for spirits brands and, you know, Jameson included, and it’s really awesome. Like, everybody has, of course, they have stories about Jameson, right, and they have, you know, oh, Jameson is… blank, right? They have, like, their own sort of real, like, thinking and feelings around what it stands for as a brand, often rooted in experience, but also just, like, you know, as a brand, it was born in, like, the Brooklyn bar scene—in the US anyway; obviously abroad it has a different sort of story—but in the US, it was just, it was so cool. And it is so cool. And I think that’s how a lot of people think about it. And yes, there is a lot of affinity for it whenever I tell people where I work, for sure.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah, I’m sure. I’m sure. Especially, like, again, my kids are young adult kids, so you know, then, like, after that trip, it was like sealed that, you know, the brand loyalty started with the parents. Anyway. It’s kind of... 

Kira: Excellent. And we thank you for that [laugh].

Karen: Yes, no problem [laugh].

Kira: [laugh]. 

Karen: I aim to please [laugh]. 

Kira: Yeah.

Karen: So, funny. But let’s talk about that storytelling because again, I’m sure you have a million, and I imagine they’d be, you know, a lot of fun, right, just some of the work that you must do, especially, like, kind of, as somebody who has an ethnography and anthropology at your roots. Like, I can only imagine how fun the work is. But let’s take a step back, get into the concept of storytelling because that’s something that you’re passionate about. And I think that it goes beyond just, you know, your take on storytelling—and correct me if I’m wrong—I’d like you to explain it, but it’s more than just using storytelling to communicate the insights. It’s more about using stories to kind of inform that brand strategic decision-making. Like, the stories serve a purpose. So, let’s just talk about that. What’s your perspective?

Kira: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, especially because my stakeholders are primarily marketers, marketers are creatives, right? At their core, they, I think… you know, not all of them, but a lot of the ones that I work with specifically, you know, they go with their gut and they feel things and they know what’s right and they know what isn’t right. And so, the way to really, I think, get through to and help marketers understand consumers and culture and whatever is emotionally and is, you know, making sure that they feel what it is that you are trying to tell them. And so, I think—you know, interestingly, a colleague at Pernod recently said that—I’m going to steal his line just because it really resonated with me and I thought it was awesome—and he was talking to the marketers in the room—shout out to [Johann 00:15:57] if he hears this—but he was talking to the marketers in the room, but he said that their job as marketers is to make the complex simple—which I think we’ve all heard before—but then his add to it was, “And make the simple interesting,” and that was a piece that I had never heard before. And I think that is our job as well. You know, for the consumer, they need simplicity, of course, and they want to be interested, and I do think that like that is our job to the marketers as well. And so, for me, that is what storytelling is all about is finding—you know, it’s not about, like, flattening nuance, and it’s not about, you know, like, taking away contradictions or tensions or anything like that, but leaning into them to explore, like… okay, what is the tension here? What is the complexity and simplifying that into a really clear narrative and then finding a way to make that feel interesting. Because, like, flat and simple isn’t interesting, but it’s only, you know, in points of tension and points of, like… it’s only in points of tension, I think, where the story really lies. So, yeah. 

Karen: There’s so much to what you just said that I’m like, okay, that is probably one of the most… critical conversations I’ve ever had around how complex and challenging the work really is. And I think a lot of times with marketing, you know, having a marketing background, right, which is what brought me into insights in the first place, there was this feeling out in the world—I sensed—of people thinking marketing is easy. And the way you just said it, it shows the complexity that actually really good marketing is super complex because you have so much work to do. So anyway, so shout out to you for kind of explaining it in such a way that makes sense and showcases how really complex it is to do good marketing. So, let’s kind of break that down a little bit. I don’t know if you have an example, I didn’t give you a whole lot of time to, like, think through examples, but you know, do you have kind of an example of that very concept about, you know, where kind of insights helps you tell a story that really resonates with people? 

Kira: The first one that really comes to mind is, you know, obviously we have a lot of sort of foundational work for the brand and for all of our brands, including, you know, like segmentations and demand maps and that kind of stuff. And as part of our needs model, you know, obviously we know kind of Jameson, what are the needs that are, like, most important to the brand and what are the things that we are trying to really address. In the last couple of years, it became really clear that, you know, the brand would like to and needs to grow with additional audiences, right, and with specifically multicultural and, sort of like, other audiences that don’t necessarily—that aren’t so ingrained in, you know, Jameson. And it became really clear to us that we were like, right, so in needing to grow with these new audiences, we understand what these needs look like for our current audiences. We understand how those manifest, what that feels like, you know, they had done qual around it, but we don’t actually know whether these feel the same for these new audiences, right? We don’t actually know whether, you know, these needs are, whether they manifest in the same way or, like, how they manifest and, you know, what not. And so, did some very deep qual with these groups, which is always going to be my favorite, and it turns out, like, these actually do manifest in quite a different way and they need to be shown differently to really, you know, address these audiences and resonate with these audiences. And, you know, I think that ultimately that is quite an obvious—like, right, of course, these needs look different and feel different. And everybody knew that, but the point was… okay, but what is it? Like, how do we need to be showing that, you know, we are addressing these needs? How do we need to be speaking to these consumers in order to resonate with them more deeply? And then also, like, pulling apart the nuances and points of connection, right, because at the end of the day, we can only do so much, we can only make so many pieces of content, so many pieces of, you know, whatever. And so, trying to, like, distill very, very clearly where things could potentially overlap and where there need to be really clear sort of like moments of pulling them apart.

Karen: Another stellar concept to tease out that you just shared is, we have all—we, we people who have ever done qualitative research in particular and listening to people speak, and a lot of it is, like, yes, common sense; yes, I knew that. That has happened throughout the entirety of my career, you know, where it’s like, yes, that’s all logical. You hear people say it and it kind of validates things that you might have thought or it makes tangible interconnected thoughts. So, there’s something about that process, but the key is not then dismissing what you’ve heard as, yeah, yeah, that’s common sense. It’s not new, but then making the next connection. Like, okay, so we’ve heard this. It makes sense to us. That’s actually solid research there because it makes sense to us, therefore we know we can act on it, right? It resonates somehow and we can do more with it now that we kind of have this kind of foundational validation, almost, of random thoughts. So, you know. 

Kira: Love validation of random thoughts, yes [laugh].

Karen: [laugh]. Yes, love valida—I do too, across the world, right? 

Kira: Yeah. 

Karen: So, let me ask you this. Kind of, you know, one of the things that we talked about earlier, even earlier in this conversation is the idea of being, kind of like, culturally relevant to different audiences, and here you are, like, multinational and yes, you have finite numbers of stories you can tell. How do you do that? Like how do you dissect, you know, something that might be universal or culturally relevant in one area? I know you’re focused kind of on the US. So, you know, what does that look like from almost like a… thought journey, right, from when you’re actually informing thoughts, but you know, is it methodologically different? Is it debriefing different? You know, how do you get to cultural relevance with what you’re hearing? Or did it start at project inception?

Kira: That’s such a good question. I think there’s a few things to that. I think the first is, like—I mean, first of all, I think this piece of it is very much an art more than the science, which is, there are manifestations of things that are, you know, different and, you know, this cultural group does or says or thinks things differently than this cultural group or whatever. But then I think the art of that is, okay, but what is the overarching, you know, human need that sits across that, or you know, what is the, like, cultural tension that they’re responding to, right? Because the world is happening all around us and people are constantly responding to things that are happening in the world and I think, like… nothing happens in a vacuum, right? So, everything is responding to something. And so, I think it is honestly, the most important piece is not taking anything in a vacuum and understanding, like, what are the things that that is connected to help to try to find the unifying story. But that said, there are times and moments where cultural specificity is unbelievably important. And so, I think that’s the piece where, you know, partnership and, like, thought partnership and strategic partnership comes into play, where you’re having these conversations around, what are we actually trying to do here, right? Are we trying to be sort of capital C culturally relevant, right or are we trying to be culturally relevant to a specific group? And are we trying to, you know, drive consideration or brand affinity or whatever with X consumer group or are we trying to, you know, make a massive impact across the board? 

Karen: So, tell me now, building on that, kind of, how does trend work… so we’ve talked about kind of going out and doing research, but how does trend work, global trends, for example, or local trends or, you know, U.S. Trends, how does that factor in? How do you kind of pull in these trends to the work that you’re doing to kind of shape the direction you’re giving or the conversations you’re having with your stakeholders?

Kira: Honestly, I think it’s really, it’s similar. It is sort of feeling the macro trends and being really just, like, in the gut, like, aware of what the macro is, while also paying attention to the micro and knowing sort of when to balance, like, you know, agility and response to the micro versus playing the long game for lack of a better term, right? And I think when it comes to pulling those things together for marketers and for brand teams, it is not telling them what they don’t need to know, right? It is, like, they don’t need to be as entrenched in the sort of like trends and shift as an insights person is. I think they need to be—I mean, they’re smart, you know? They’re also aware of the things that are going on and they’re aware of how that’s impacting their business, but they, I think, need to sometimes have the connections drawn and the—yeah, need to have the dots sort of like connected to help plan for the future and also to help stay agile in this current moment.

Karen: There’s something about just being tapped in to, not just doing trend work. Like, so I have, I’ve talked to a lot of people who are, like, we do specific trend work and they’re all about kind of, you know, predictive thinking and future thinking and kind of looking out there and how do the trends inform our work, blah blah blah, but there’s something also very interesting about just being tapped into pop culture or current culture that, you know, I have this example of—without being, like, too, you know, giving away too much—but like, somebody made a comparison to Jennifer Coolidge, for example, and somebody heard that interpretation and was like, oh, God, that’s such a negative. She’s so dated, she’s so old, going back to, like, you know, the beginning of her career. And I’m like, oh, no, you’re not in touch anymore. Like—[laugh].

Kira: Right [laugh]. 

Karen: —she’s super [laugh]—

Kira: Come on.

Karen: Look her up right now. She’s an icon. So like, she had this, like, career renaissance that if you weren’t paying attention, you missed. And I think that on some level, the job of an insights professional will always be to connect those dots, too. So, you know, pressure to stay in touch. Like, no, no, no, like, we’re not talking about so and so anymore, but we are back to her or back to him or whatever. Like, you have to pay attention to pop culture and to, you know, societal trends. Like, you have no choice because you might hear something in a group or in a conversation or in an interview that only makes sense if you understand the context that’s around it.

Kira: I totally agree. And—

Karen: Anyway, my bandwagon [laugh].

Kira: No, no, no, I completely agree. And it makes the insights so much richer and so much better when they’re connected to, you know, a broader thing. Interestingly, that just reminded me, you know, like, in anthropology, they always talk about the importance of, like, the insider-outsider dynamic. Like, you are sort of trying to maintain this ideal of simultaneously being an observer and also a participant at the same time, and that is what makes for, like, good ethnography or, like, good, you know, anthropology. And I think that remains true, like that is a concept from academia, as stale as it can be, that I try to bring with me, which is maintaining a sense of neutrality and sort of like observation, while at the same time, you need to experience it to get it, you know? You do. 

Karen: Yeah, there was an ethnographic project from years ago, early in my career—I’ll tell you a quick story and hope it helps bring that concept to life—I was with people who were kind of below the poverty level, we were talking about life insurance policies. And this was all about getting people to kind of pay their premiums. And so, I’m in this woman’s home, like, an older woman, we’re in the deep south, and we’re just having the same conversation that I have with everybody. But when I gave her, at the time—God, I’m so dating myself—but we handed out incentive checks to people. So, when I handed her her incentive check, she started to weep, she started to call me an angel, she asked if somebody could come in and take my photo, and suddenly I had a different experience with this interview because I was in it then. 

Kira: Yeah.

Karen: I became, like, a player in the moment. And so, when you’re talking about that inside-outside thing, I went from outside to inside in the gesture that then became a part of how I embodied the research. 

Kira: Exactly.

Karen: It was life changing for me. And I’m like, “Oh, I don’t”—and I’m getting goosebumps now just thinking about it. It was a formative moment that I will never forget is that moment when everything changed in the entirety of the project.

Kira: Yeah.

Karen: Anyway, thank you for indulging me and listening [laugh]. 

Kira: Yeah. No, of course. And look, I mean, not to get on my bandwagon now, but those are the kinds of things that, like, just can’t be replaced, those real human moments. And I know everyone is talking about how research is shifting and how insights are shifting and et cetera—and, you know, I have many complex thoughts on that—but that is the thing that can’t be replaced.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let’s talk about some of those complex thoughts, shall we [laugh]?

Kira: [laugh].

Karen: Because you opened up that door for me, again, not a part of the brief. But, you know, one of the things I did want to talk to you about is, you know, as a creative thinker, and as, you know, kind of a somebody who is, you know, kind of working in service to marketing and so you’re tapped into a lot of different tools and techniques and methodologies and I’m sure platforms and ways of going about your work. And I’m sure you’ve done a combination of, like, you know, ad hoc research, where you’re paying other people and DIY research where you’re doing it yourself, like, I just know that about you, what are some of the kind of tools that are critical to your trade currently? That you could share. Nothing that’s proprietary, of course, but are there things that you’re relying on that help you do the work today, in May of 2025?

Kira: I definitely will say I have… I have, not entirely, but I have joined the bandwagon on, you know, utilizing AI, really in, like, front end of research, right? So in, you know, helping with questionnaires or brief writing or like that sort of thing. Not for everything, but in moments of, like, oh, I actually just don’t have time to do this, like, let me get a little help. But I still… I mean, I enjoy the writing process. It helps me sort of formulate my thoughts when I am actively writing them, so I don’t do a ton of that. But I think, you know, as, like, an insights function, we have started to lean into a little bit more AI research and, you know, like, not us specifically, but with vendors who have elements of AI, like, ingrained into their functions. And it’s definitely allowed for, of course, faster turnaround of things, you know, less expensive, like, all of those sorts of benefits are so real and make a lot of sense and are super valuable. And they have definitely, I think, for things that you don’t need a ton of depth for, been awesome, right? Things where you’re not missing anything from the human, I think, fantastic. Like, I love a quick turn around and I love, you know, a more affordable study. I… like humans and I think, you know, where I have found the best work that incorporates different kinds of AI is where it actually is, like, a true, true partnership between human and AI and it doesn’t feel like, you know, the research just kind of, like, was written by AI, but it feels like it was maybe an initial, like, here’s where the themes lie. Now, let me, like, go in and do my own storytelling, that is where I much prefer for AI to live. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if—this is maybe going to sound crazy—but I wouldn’t be surprised if in the next… I don’t know, seven years, something like that, who knows, five to ten years, let’s say, there was a shift back to the depth and the human and the, like, you know, researchers and insights folks wanting to lean away from the AI.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah, you know, and I do hope that’s the case. I think right now, my take is that you know, if you’re a research—I’ve said this before on the exchange that I do, the weekly live stream that I do, like, if you’re a research provider, you need to have AI tools for the efficiencies, for the economies of scale for, you know, the speed of turnaround thing. So like, if you’re on that side of the ecosystem, like, of course you have to be leaning into all of this to stay relevant and to be a stronger tool or service provider. And on the brand side, I think you’re charged—you and others like you—are charged with having the ability to think through when do we need to go deeper? When is this okay? And that thought process, that critical thinking about this one I can do with a quick turnaround and get an AI support, this one, nope, we just need to go depth and we need to really just talk to human beings. I think there will always be that need for that level decision-making before you go in, just, like, we used to have to decide, is this a focus group or an IDI or is this a quant study or a qual study? Like, there’s always been these moments in time where you have to make it an executive decision about the type of work you do. I see that as the future. I see that becoming more and more important that you become acutely aware of, where is it in assist? Where do we need to get that depth? 

Kira: Yeah, I really like that. Like, it is a tool that can be added to our toolbox and, you know, sets of methodologies, but it’s not the be all and end all. Honestly, and maybe this is just showing my, like, slight luddite nature or whatever, but it’s the synthetic data that freaks me out a little bit. I’m not quite there yet. I’m working on learning more about it to get over it, but it freaks me out.

Karen: Yeah, I get that. I get that. I know. Later today, I’m doing—which by the time this airs, this will have been past tense—but we’re talking a bit more about synthetic data week after week. Like we’re digging into, you know, both the promises and the pitfalls. It’s just, that is… anyway, I think we always say, like, the garbage in garbage, garbage out concept, and garbage might be too harsh of a word because talking about cultural relevance, like, there’s just a lot of bias in there and we have to work on the right sampling and make sure that what’s being inputted is actually reflective or at least properly labeled as dissected. You know, there’s just so many nuances with synthetic data. That’s a whole—that’s an entirely different pot—

Kira: Oh—

Karen: Episode, Kira, really [laugh].

Kira: —totally. Well, I’ll be back, so—[laugh].

Karen: Excellent. Excellent. 

Kira: No, I mean, I guess my only other thought on this that I just want to share is, like, you know, to bring it back to what we were talking about, I think as a creative person and as a storyteller and as someone who I feel it is so important to feel a connection to the data and to feel a connection to, you know, that source of truth in order for me to be able to tell good stories. Like, if I don’t feel it, I can’t tell a good story. And so, where leaning so heavily on AI—especially for qual—where that leads me is I’m less ingrained in the story and it makes for what I feel is sometimes an overly simplistic—like, I haven’t wrestled with the tensions, you know?

Karen: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And let’s go full circle to what you said earlier—you know, shout out to Johann—it doesn’t make the simple interesting, right?

Kira: Yes. 

Karen: We need to keep—we need to—even if it’s simple, we need to keep making it interesting. That’s the job. So, especially when you’re informing the stakeholders you’re informing. So, I love this conversation so much, Kira. What did we not get to that you really wish I had asked you about? Any questions that you’re like, “God, I wish Karen had asked me this?”

Kira: Oh, that is a great question. I mean, you ask great questions. I don’t know [laugh].

Karen: The answer can always be, “We’re good. You covered it.” That’s fine. Sometimes people come into this with the wish that we covered something and if I don’t do it, then I feel bad because they’re like, “Oh, I wish we had talked about this.” So, I never want people to leave, you know, a guest spot wanting to have had something that they wouldn’t have had otherwise. So, that’s the...

Kira: No, I feel great about this. Thank you.

Karen: Cool. Very cool. You’re welcome. So, then I will charge you with, you know, the future of insights. So, our tagline at Greenbook is ‘The Future of Insights,’ and we’re always kind of asking people that. We talked a little bit about it with, you know, with kind of AI. But outside of that and thinking about the work you do and thinking about the conversation we had, whether it’s storytelling or cultural relevance or any of those other buckets that we’ve covered, multinational companies and brands, what do you think the future of insights entails?

Kira: I think that it is much closer, like, strategic partnership with stakeholders. I’ve been on a lot of insights teams where, even internally, you know, you’re delivering the story, interesting as it might be, and then you say, “Okay, bye.” Like, “Enjoy.” And I think something that I have found to be really important is really, really continuing to work those insights into everything and ensuring not only alignment, but like, making sure that you are helping them to embed that in, you know, the work moving forward. And so, like, for me, what that has meant is, like, a lot of workshops, a lot of, you know, collaboration. And I think that as teams, sort of—you know, obviously budgets are tight everywhere, obviously timelines are tighter everywhere, right, and so as there’s more pressure on stakeholder groups and marketing teams and whoever else you might be delivering insights to, I think being able to play that strategic partnership role as an insights person is going to become even more and more important.

Karen: Yeah, yeah. I love that. Always the thought partner you are. Always the thought partner. I love it so much. Kira, thank you so much for joining me on this episode. 

Kira: Thank you for having me. This was great. 

Karen: It was great on my part too. Yes, such a pleasure. So, thank you to our audience for tuning in. Everybody listening, we are so grateful for you and we appreciate you showing up, you know, time after time to tune in. And thank you to Big Bad Audio, who is our audio and now video editor [laugh]. Thank you for what you do, and the entire Greenbook team that gets this out to you, from Brigette to our marketing team. I appreciate all of you and we’ll see you next time. Thanks everyone. Bye-bye.