Unexpected paths often lead to the most rewarding destinations

In this enlightening episode of the Greenbook Podcast, host Karen Lynch is joined by 2024 Future List Honoree Belinda Brown, Director of Marketing and Business Development at Gazelle Global. Belinda shares her journey from aspiring clinical psychologist to influential market researcher, highlighting her personal experiences with PCOS and the significant gaps in women's health research. She discusses the transformative power of market research on policy and consumer behavior, the role of AI in the industry, and the importance of inclusivity and volunteerism. Belinda also gives a sneak peek into her new book, Global Sales Channel, and her excitement for upcoming industry events. This episode is a deep dive into the intersections of personal experience, professional growth, and the broader impact of market research.

Check out Global Sales Channel on Amazon.

You can reach out to Belinda on LinkedIn.

Many thanks to Belinda for being our guest. Thanks also to our producer, Natalie Pusch; and our editor, Big Bad Audio.

Transcript

Karen: Hello, everybody. This is Karen Lynch, and I’m excited to be hosting today’s episode of the Greenbook Podcast. So, welcome. Today we get to talk to another of our 2024 Future List Honorees. I’m excited to welcome Belinda Brown to the show. Belinda is the Director of Marketing and Business Development at Gazelle Global. And before I ask you for more of an introduction, Belinda, I just want to say welcome to the Greenbook Podcast. It’s great to have you here.

Belinda: Thank you so much for having me.

Karen: Before we begin the call, you know, you have an interesting background. You’ve been with Gazelle Global for, you know, seven and a half years at this point. But before that, you’ve had kind of a different background, so why don’t you set the stage for the audience by giving everybody a bit of your background, kind of what brought you to the current position that you’re in.

Belinda: Yeah. So I sort of grew up in the industry, and the company for which I work currently is headed by Anne Brown, who happens to be my mother. So I sort of grew up on the periphery of research. But like any good child, I wanted to do anything but, so I had no interest in market research really to speak of quite a long time, and I had dreams of being in sort of a clinical psychology role somewhere. So I have a degree in psychology and a degree in English. Those are my undergraduate degrees—and then eventually got my graduate degree in business. But I really started just wanting to—I had an interest in people. I had an interest in what the human experience is and what it really means to be a person walking around planet Earth. So I sort of followed that dream in—I did a bit of research, coincidentally enough. I ended up in a research—sort of in a clinical background working with adults and children with autism on the autism spectrum with an early intervention specialist. So I was doing some research, and I then started a study—working on a study called Upstate Kids, which is funded out of New York state, which is looking at children that were conceived with IVF looking for developmental—markers of developmental in kids that were conceived with IVF. And that sort of bit me with the research bug. I think that was where it might have began, and then I just sort of—I started with Gazelle. I was doing some freelance writing at the time, and they were looking for sort of a marketing professional, and I—that role sort of snowballed into the role it is today. But, yeah, that’s how I sort of entered the research community from a marketing perspective, which I think is a really interesting vantage point. And I love it, so I’m here to stay.

Karen: Well, I’m so glad because you’re already contributing quite a bit. So I just want to follow up on something. You know, you say you were bit by the research bug, and so many people that I know were listening have [laugh] also been bit by the research bug. Many people come from different fields. Lots of people do come from a psychology background. Some people come from a marketing background into the research business. So what do you think it was about research in general that was that, that—again, the bug that bit you?

Belinda: I think it was a number of things. For the most part, I think I realized how much of an effect market research has on consumer behavior, on policy, on decision making, all the way from, you know, you walk into a supermarket and make decisions for your family about what you’re going to buy. Our policy makers are making decisions for how this country is going to run, how our global landscape is going to look, geopolitical negotiation. I think it has a huge impact in the world that we live in, and I wanted to be part of that. I wanted to be somehow in the mix of that sort of backend work that goes into some of these—you know, what we see, you know, around the world today. I think I wanted to be a part of the work that goes into making those decisions.

Karen: I think that’s it’s neat also to think about your transition from sort of research into the marketing of a research company. What are some sort of very—it can be very pragmatic, or it could be really inspirational—but words of wisdom that you might have for somebody who is, you know, starting out in their career maybe in one space, in the marketing research space or in the marking space? Any words of wisdom for that, you know, those first few years of your career?

Belinda: I think just to stay curious. I had no idea what the day-to-day would look like in this job, and I think we do a pretty poor job of explaining or presenting to young people what the options are. Right? Like, every kid wants to be a firefighter or a teacher or—you know, there’s this very limited representation of what work can be. And I think if you just remain curious about what your day-to-day might be—my, you know, my marketing role within the market research industry gives me a chance to be creative every day. It gives me a chance to problem solve. So really looking for the kinds of opportunities that highlight what you’re good at, that highlight the things that really activate you. It doesn’t necessarily have to be that everything about a particular industry or particular job appeals. There’s going to be things that really sort of light a fire under you, and I think following those instincts might land you in a place that—that is—that really works.

Karen: Yeah. I love the phrase “activate” also. I’ve used it in different contexts, not necessarily in this one, and I love it as a sort of parallel way of talking about, you know, fueling your passion and what really, you know, gets you out of bed in the morning when you work in this field. In terms of your journey, have there been things along the way that have really fueled that activation for you personally?

Belinda: Yeah. Absolutely. One thing that really—I think most recently, I had a—I was diagnosed with PCOS. And although my father was a freedom writer in the ‘60s, he was born in Jackson, Mississippi, and was an activist and a freedom writer. And so that’s always sort of been in my blood, right? There’s always been this activation, as we just said, for certain causes. But I hadn’t really—I grew up in a diverse community. I went to a diverse school. Although I had, certainly, experiences of discrimination—sort of more—not quite as acutely as others, I think that that was—I was at least academically aware of what was going on. However, I think I really came into contact with discrimination in the health space. Right? So there’s just not enough research being done in women’s health issues. Right? It’s vastly underfunded. And so, when I was diagnosed with PCOS, I ran into a bunch of issues trying to get proper care or trying to get information and really ran into a lot of gatekeeping, a lot of information silos. And so I think, for the first time, I realized the implication that research has for some of these larger sectors that I had thought of as sort of a consumer or I thought of as even a marketer. Right? Like, I thought about the healthcare space from a completely different angle. But when you’re on the other side, I think you realize what the lack of research or really great research, right, can have on that experience: that consumer experience, that patient experience, and why the work really matters. So that was my sort of first—although I had already been working in the field for a while, I think it was a real activation point for me of “Oh, this matters.” This work really has an effect on how we live, and it’s important to do it right.

Karen: You know, I love that. Thank you. And I think that whenever the work that we do as researches, and that, you know, your team is doing as a research team has to really unpack consumer needs or pain points or issues that really do affect quality of life or life specifically, I think there is a heavy level of motivation there. Right? You know the importance of your work. I was just having this conversation with somebody not that long ago about the significance of the work we do really making a difference for human beings. And circling back to Future List Honorees, the panel of judges—for those of you who are listening, you know, they—when they look at people’s backgrounds and the applications that are submitted and the nomination forms that are submitted and all this information, there is a common theme to many of our Future List Honorees, which has to do with volunteerism and efforts that you. And I see on your LinkedIn, you know, you’ve been involved in Special Olympics. You worked for a cause, the Coalition To Stop Gun Violence. You’ve been a mentor at the Creative and Performing Arts School. So talk to me a little bit about that aspect of your life and why it’s been important to you to give back in many different ways and different types of ways.

Belinda: Yeah. I think it’s imperative to give back to the community that enriched you to sort of grow where you’re planted. And I think just giving people the opportunity to look back and extend a hand and sort of—you know, I think that I’m an amalgamation of all of the people and things and systems that helped me, so I think, you know, returning that favor and looking back and—so helping others and volunteerism has always been extremely important to me, and there are certain causes that really ignite me and sort of activate me at the time, and then that sort of—that might dissipate, and something else will come into focus. But I think women’s issues, maternal/fetal healthcare, inclusivity and diversity, these are things that are—that I come into contact with every single day, so I think it’s—right now, that’s what’s really firing me up. But, yeah, that changes every day. Right? And certainly all of the things that I’ve worked on—it’s an ongoing process. Right? I think it’s also important to note that it’s—none of this stuff is going away, and we’ve got a lot of work to do. So as many people as want to help I think is great. So, yeah, those causes are really important to me, and I think it’s imperative that we look backwards and reach a hand back to help as many people as we can.

Karen: I like that. Thank you so much. Speaking of back—or back to women’s health in particular and the research that can happen there, whether it’s, you know, clinical research or even in the marketing research space. What are some of the challenges that you see conducting that type of research?

Belinda: I think the biggest challenge is funding. Women’s health is vastly underfunded. I think something like three percent of health research is dedicated to health issues that affect either women primarily or women entirely. Really excited about—Dr. Jill Biden has just said that they’re federally funding about 100 million dollars’ worth of research, so that’s a new effort that I think is going to really change some things, and hopefully we’re going in the right direction there. But, if you look at women’s health, if you then look at how sort of that goes down the line, if you’re a woman of color, if you are a transwoman, if—so you sort of have all of these—like, a Russian doll of ‘isms’, right, that then are vastly underfunded. And I think that’s the biggest issue. The other issue, which from a market research perspective, is representative sample. Right? If you look at—representation is so important. We talk about it in the media a lot. We talk about it in entertainment. And we talk about it as an industry in terms of authenticity and validity and credibility. But, you know, I had a—particularly when—one of the things that happens to you with PCOS is that—well, at least for me. There’s several different kinds, but a lot of women experience hair loss. So I went to the doctor, and my hair was essentially falling out in droves. It was, like, a chemo montage. It was terrifying, right. And I went to the doctor, and it was sort of “Okay. Here’s what’s going on, we think. There’s going to be all this testing.” And by the end of it, the only solution that was provided for me was—I’ll use the generic. I won’t disparage a brand. But [laugh] there was a drug called Minoxidil, and one brand kind of has the monopoly in that space. But I looked at the—bought the packaging, right, because I was desperate. I wanted to change this, so I bought the package, and I bought the product. I looked at the packaging, and at the bottom of the box, it says “primarily tested on white women.” And although I’m half white, I didn’t think that—I do have very textured hair, and I didn’t think that that was going to be a product that worked for me. And so I went back to the dermatologist that prescribed it and said, “Hey… look. This is—I’m not sure if this is going to work for me. I don’t think I’m going to use it. But I just wanted to let you know that this is what you’re recommending for folks, and it may not be the best tool for all people.” And she was actually really open and really appreciative of that feedback, but that’s the kind of thing that you confront every day as a consumer of color. That’s the kind of thing you confront as a woman, right, looking for some of these things. And that can be applied to all kinds of groups and all kinds of situations. But I think that’s a—in a clinical sense or that’s in another kind of research. But if you look at that sample, primarily test—first of all, I was very happy that they reported it. Right? Because I had the information. We don’t always have access to that information, so I was appreciative of it as the brand. But I think you just don’t realize the affect that that has, this sort of narrowing of focus on particular groups and not having that representative sample.

Karen: Yeah. And the importance of collecting customer feedback. Because you provided some. You weren’t asked for it, but you provided some feedback back. So, you know, it’s interesting to think about how many missed opportunities for companies who have products to market. They’re missing out on that feed back if they’re not doing the work to ask it, and they could certainly improve the experience across the board if they have that lens of inclusivity and if they actually have programs in place to get that feedback. So thank you for sharing that story. You know, you talk about your lived experience, and I know that you’ve also been in other DEI initiatives. So talk to be about what else that you’ve been doing, some of the other initiatives that you’ve been involved in kind of promoting diversity inclusion.

Belinda: Yeah. I’ve—you know, I think the industry does a really good job. We’ve got a lot of—WIRe in Color is a great organization that I’ve been involved in. The IDEAtor program out of Insights Association. Greenbook has a—well, you know, also has best practices that they’re putting out. I think the industry is doing a really good job of trying to get information out there. And I think folks just need to avail themselves to those efforts, right, and making sure that we’re putting our money where our mouth is really literally. [laugh] I think it tends to some, you know, availing yourself to these efforts if they’re happening in your community, if they’re happening in your industry. And I’ve loved being a part of some of those organizations. I’ve loved helping out. And I think, you know, the more the merrier. Right? We had an interesting experience where the—I believe it was—I forget—I’m going to forget the group who—I think it was [Culture MRX 00:14:58] is what they call themselves. Right? And it was—which was—they put out t-shirts that had a lot of the people of color in the industry that were really legendary, right. And everyone was wearing these t-shirts around the conference, and it was really fun. And I had a friend come up in the industry, who was white, and asked me, “You know, do you think it’s okay if I buy the t-shirt?” And I love that question, first of all. I love all the questions. I love that people are, you know, putting their discomfort out there. I think if we don’t talk about, nothing’s ever going to change. And I loved that they asked me that question. And I said, “First of all, absolutely. Second of all, I’m so glad that you felt comfortable asking me the question. And third of all, go buy yourself a t-shirt.”

Karen: [laugh].

Belinda: You know, I think that [laugh] it’s—it’s really important to have everybody invited into this fight because I think it’s going to take all of us. So I’ve really loved just joining up in the fight for inclusivity and diversity and equity in the industry. I do it in my community as well, but I’ve just been really proud of the way that the industry has activated around these issues, and I hope that it continues.

Karen: Yeah. And I can say that it sometimes might feel overwhelming for an individual to know “How can I help.” Like, they may think that they don’t have a role, and—

Belinda: Absolutely.

Karen: —the question would be, “How can I help,” and yet, there is probably another question which is, “What can I do? What is one thing I can do in this effort?” You know, you may not be able to change the entire world, but can you do something in your role that leads towards a more inclusive future. So anyway, thank you for sharing that. And certainly, if I come across those t-shirts, I’ll be buying one too now that I know the answer. I haven’t seen those t-shirts. But…

Belinda: Absolutely.

Karen: But I want one [laugh].

Belinda: Yeah. They’re great. They’re really great.

Karen: [laugh].

Belinda: Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, people are looking for what to do. I think start at home. Right? And by that, I mean, look at your role. Look at your firm. Look at—if you’re in a leadership position, certainly look at how you’re hiring. Look at how the hearts and minds of the people that comprise your enterprise. But also, if you’re not in a leadership role, look at whether or not the company is comprised of people that you think is on the right side of history or working in these ways. And if not, ask that question. Right? Maybe voice those concerns at the very least. And if that is not met with any sort of openness to change, I think you have your answer, right?

Karen: Yeah. Well, Culture MRX will definitely be at our IIEX event in Austin, so I look forward to welcoming them. We also have some other great programming, by the way. There’s a podcast called We’re in Research Too, that we’re excited to be bringing to our podcast stage. And some great talks about kind of all things that span the world of cultural intelligence, so I’m really looking forward to that event. And we will get to our events later, as you are also joining us on stage. But first, let me just go back to that, because you’re also an advocate for mental health, which I think is incredibly important, and I’d love to talk about that as well and kind of what your role is in that space.

Belinda: Yeah. So, you know, as I said, when I first started out, I wanted to be a clinical psychologist. It’s always been something that I’ve been really open—my struggles with anxiety and depression. I’ve been really open about that. And I think the conversation—you know, genZ has got all this stuff figured out. Right? [laugh] They’ve got it all figured out. But I think millennials and above, we’re just learning. We’re just giving—arming ourselves with the information. We’re just feeling that privilege of what it feels like to have the language, to have to vocabulary to talk about some of these things, and to have the room, right, so that you can come to the table as your authentic self and what that really looks like. And during COVID, we noticed a real gap. We were all struggling. And we noticed—a couple of friends and colleagues of mine, we noticed that there was a real gap in communication around what all of this might mean, and we started a forum where people could just once a week come and chat with us about whatever they were feeling. And I really enjoyed starting that initiative, and I think it was really important to have a space for people to be able to talk about whatever they were feeling. But I’ve just really enjoyed watching—personally watching genZ just really teach us all how to communicate in these ways, and there’s just a lack of stigma, which is really fun to watch as a person who—you know, I’m a millennial, and I’m privileged enough to have a lot of communication around this—these issues, but my parents are boomers. You know, there was—I was lucky enough to be in a house that communicated about some of these, but I watch them not have the vocabulary to talk about some of their issues. And so it’s been fun to watch that change in the industry and just around the world.

Karen: So, once again, you know, I’m thinking about this forum, and I’m thinking, you know, you are somebody that not only has ideas, but you execute against them. And so, when I think about what makes a Future List Honoree, these are the sorts of things that rise to the top. Right? You’re not just a thinker. You’re somebody who actually acts on the thoughts that you have, and you are somebody who is involved in things that are really important for a much bigger picture than just your own business. Right? These are things that affect the industry or affect the business world or affect society at large. So, anyway, I’d just like to shout that out because as people are listening and—I want—let there be no question as to why you rose to the top, Belinda. It’s really—it’s incredible speaking to you. So thank you for all you do.

Belinda: Thanks so much.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. Let’s shift a little bit and kind of think about what’s going on in the industry specifically now. So, again, you have a marketer’s hat on at the moment rather than necessarily a researcher’s hat on, but you’d have to be living under a rock to not know that AI is impacting our industry, and there’s a lot of, you know, tech-forward innovation happening as always. But how do you kind of foresee this all working out for us?

Belinda: My relationship to AI is—it’s a tool. Right? I think there’s always—and we’ve seen it happen. Right? We saw it in the content at conferences, right, in the first few years when this was happening. We’ve seen the sort of trajectory of panic to maybe some excitement to maybe some apprehension. And it sort of goes up and down. And I remain a little bit level-headed around some of this stuff, I think, because of the privileged vantage point of both a marketer and of a millennial. Right? We grew in a time where there was just a ton of really exponential change, and, you know, we were told by teachers that we’d never have a calculator in our pockets, so we better learn our multiplication tables. Well, jokes on them. We do all have calculators in our pockets. Right? So I think it’s about the access to information and the access to these tools and just being really mindful around how we’re using the tools themselves. And my interest, because that’s sort of the lens through which I look at all this stuff, is the access, right, the democratization of it. Like, have we really democratized access to AI? No, not yet. Have we democratized access to privacy within AI? No, that’s an additional cost, right? If you’re using some of these programs, to have it be a closed circuit is an additional cost. So then you’re—you know, you’ve privatized privacy, which I think is interesting. And I think we just have to look at a tool is only as good as sort of the information that it’s trained on. So we have to have a—sort of take all of it with a grain of salt. But I have the same excitement that a lot of people have around the timesaving, the sort of—they’ve looked at AI for medical advancement, right, that we’re looking at a much higher rate of success for reading—ultrasound reading, MRI. And I’m most likely butchering some of this information, but I think it’s [laugh] exciting. But, again, have we—that’s an additional cost. Right? If you go get your mammogram and you want AI to analyze your mammogram, that’s an additional cost for a lot of folks. So have we democratized access to some of these really powerful tools? Not yet. I’m not convinced. But I do think that’s going to be—it has really exciting implications, and it just has to be used with caution like anything else.

Karen: Yeah. I agree. And, you know, I’ve been talking quite a bit here at Greenbook on The Exchange and in other podcast episodes and also internally of, like, you know, that this is our reality. We live with AI, and we’re trying to figure out ways to work it into our workstreams every day and encourage other people in the industry to do as well. In your opinion, what ways might market research firms start to leverage AI to tackle some of these issues that we’ve already talked about: so whether it’s issues of representation in sample, whether it’s issues of inclusivity. What are your thoughts?

Belinda: Yeah. I think it’s—you know, with other trends that we’re seeing are things like social listening and, I think, an effort to try to have really representative sample and things happening at scale. I think AI is going to be really instrumental in our ability to kind of capitalize on those efforts in a way that saves us time. Right? Because it’s—you’re looking at sort of a diminishment of overhead, right, on some of this stuff. If you have a tool that’s really successful and really accurate in some of these efforts, you then minimize how many people you need or how—you know, the kind of cost of it all. So I think that’s going to be really helpful for access in terms of if you’ve got AI in your wheelhouse. I think it’s going to reduce overhead. I think it’s going to—once we figure out how to do democratize access to it, I think it’s going to help a lot of folks with time management, with project management, and, again, that representative sample. I think you’re going to be able to do a lot of things at scale that we can’t without it.

Karen: Yeah. I agree. I agree. So thinking about the people that are still a little resistant to all this change because there are many. And some feedback from—some feedback that we’ve gotten in is some people are that are just—you know, they’re not leaning in the way we know they need to lean in. What would your advice be to somebody who isn’t? What skills can people focus on building? Or, again, what advice would you give to people to help them along this learning curve?

Belinda: I think one of the things that’s really great about the time that we live in is that we do have access to information. So get yourself familiarized with what it is, even if that’s in—you know, under the cover of darkness on your own laptop in your living room, you know. Get yourself acclimated to—because it’s here, as you said. So, if you want to be a part of it, if you want to be a part of what’s going to be happening and avail yourself to the information that’s out there, start using some of the tools. Start using ChatGPT perhaps to plan a trip or help you write a blog or draft a cover letter. You know, take a look at what it can do and what it can’t. Right? Because it will become quite clear pretty quickly what its limitations are, and I think that’s what makes it less scary. Right? So just jump in.

Karen: Yeah. Jump in. I agree. The water is warm. Go ahead. Jump in.

Belinda: Yeah.

Karen: So maybe don’t go into the deep in just yet, but you should still be swimming [laugh]. Belinda, I wanted to go back to—you know, you had mentioned that you were working with your mother at some point in the beginning of this interview. And then I know in your application you also talked about kind of carrying on the legacy of some industry leaders, including your mother. So talk to me a little bit more about that, why that’s a wish of yours, and then what you hope for kind of in your life.

Belinda: Yeah. Personally I realized recently, rather recently, that the company that my mother built and this industry that she’s been a part of so long afforded me the life that brought me back to it. So I feel a real debt of gratitude to the industry, to the company, and to her. So I think it’s very meaningful to me, and I think—you know, my mom always said this was a business that born on the backs of sort of women and their dining room tables, which I think is a really accurate and [laugh] interesting thing, right, especially in this—in today’s climate, I don’t think you can say that about a ton of industries. It means so much to me to be a part of it, and I think I would love to continue the legacy of powerhouse women who were at the back end of really important decision making in all the verticals that we’ve discussed today. I think it’s a really vast and interesting place to be, and I love it. I love this industry, and I think it’s important just to remain curious about where it can go. You know, I have no idea what the legacy that I’d like to leave behind is. I’m just excited to be writing those stories as we speak.

Karen: Well, we’re excited for that too, and we’ll be paying attention moving forward. So thank you for sharing all of that. Now, I can tell our listeners that Belinda will be on stage at IIEX Europe in Amsterdam in June, so we are looking forward to that. Thank you so much. That will be communicated further out as we move along in the next few weeks towards that event. But what else, Belinda, do you have kind of on the horizon for 2024? What are you looking forward to, either professionally or certainly personally? What’s coming?

Belinda: I’m really excited about IIEX Europe. I’ve never been to Amsterdam, so I’m thrilled about that. I also have a book that’s out. It came out in November, so we’re really excited about promoting that. It’s about global sales. So—and I wrote it with a brilliant friend named Andrea Brown, and she’s a brilliant sales woman, and so we sort of got our heads together and wrote this book. So personally and professionally, that’s kind of what I’m most jazzed about is getting this book out there. It’s on Amazon in the US and the UK. It’s called Global Sales Channel. And just looking forward to, you know, conference season kicking up again and getting out there and seeing people I really enjoy. You know, I work remotely, and I do love that, but I [laugh] love when we get out and see each other. So I’m just looking forward to communicating and collaborating with the insights community.

Karen: That’s great. And that’s great. And I love—congratulations on the book. That is no small accomplishment, so kudos to you.

Belinda: Thank you so much.

Karen: And doing it with somebody that you respect and appreciate, I think it must be a great win personally, so good luck to you both [laugh].

Belinda: Thank you so much. Yeah. It was so rewarding.

Karen: Yeah. Cool. Cool. So is there anything that I did not ask you? You know, I’m kind of being mindful of our time here, but anything that I didn’t ask you that you wish I had?

Belinda: Let’s see. I don’t think so [laugh].

Karen: That’s good. Great. That actually means that we covered everything we planned to talk about.

Belinda: Yeah.

Karen: And that’s all good things. So, you know, any kind of final words of advice, then is how we’ll leave this, to other people who maybe aspire to being a Future List Honoree in the future? Maybe they’re just starting out so they’re listening now, but they’re thinking “what does one need to be considered worthy of that honor?” What advice would you have?

Belinda: I think, first of all, I love the advice of “do it scared.” I think often we hear from people who are in the middle of their career or towards the ends of their career, and they talk about all of their expertise and their thought leadership, and that’s great. But I love hearing how people fail. I love hearing how, you know, there’s—by no means, did I do any of these things without fear. I think courage is being scared and doing it anyway, so just start. Just jump in. The water is fine, as we said. You know, you don’t have to jump into the deep end. And I would say ask as many people for help as you possibly can. There is zero shame in asking for help, and we are just an amalgamation of those that came before us and those that are—you know, that pour into us, so ask for as much help as possible and do it scared.

Karen: I love “do it scared” so much. It resonates with me greatly. I did not know in the entirety of my career that I would be a podcast host at one point. And when it was suggested that I do one—

Belinda: Yeah. A great one, by the way.

Karen: —sure, I’ll do that scared. Oh, thank you so much for that [laugh].

Belinda: [laugh].

Karen: But I did start off pretty scared, and there are times when I’m like, oh… this is still a very scary thing to be doing, so… And having interviewed, you know, thousands of people across my career, you know, I think all the time, like, there are just still sometimes when it’s—each one is new. Right? You never have the same conversation twice. So do it scared. I love it. It’s great advice. Belinda, thank you so very much for joining us on our podcast today. I just look forward to meeting you in-person in Amsterdam in a couple of weeks, and I wish you really all the best.

Belinda: Thank you so much. This was so much fun.

Karen: Good. I’m glad. I’m glad. I also need to shout out some words of thanks, primarily to our producer, Natalie Pusch. Natalie, thank you for all that you do. I say this week after week, but really I’m just so grateful. To our editor, Big Bad Audio, thank you for what you do to make it sound the way it sounds. I appreciate that. And then also to you, our listeners, I am grateful that you tune in every week, and it’s because of you that I look forward to doing this so very much. So thank you, everybody. Have a great week, and I’ll see you next time. Bye-bye.