In this episode, Karen Lynch sits down with Ritanbara Mundrey, Global Head of Innovation and Insights at Nestlé Dairy, focusing on how innovation drives business growth. Ritanbara shares her expertise on navigating the complex world of product innovation, from identifying emerging consumer trends to fostering cross-functional collaboration that turns insights into impactful business strategies.

She highlights the importance of blending consumer-centric insights with product experimentation to develop breakthrough innovations. Ritanbara also discusses how big brands can stay ahead of trends, like the rise of AI, and ensure their innovations resonate in an ever-evolving marketplace. This episode offers valuable takeaways for anyone passionate about the intersection of insights and innovation.

Transcript

Karen: Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Greenbook Podcast. I’m your host today. It’s Karen Lynch here with Greenbook. And I’m really excited to be welcoming our guest. Today, we’re going to be talking to Ritanbara Mundrey. She is the global head of innovation and insights at Nestlé, specifically within the dairy division. And we’re going to be talking a little bit about one of my favorite topics, kind of insights and innovation and how they intersect and inform business decisions. And before we get into the topic, I just want to say, welcome to the show.

Ritanbara: Thank you, Karen. Absolutely delighted to be here.

Karen: It’s a delight to have you. It was also a delight to meet you. So you and I crossed paths at IIEX in Europe, which, of course, is the Insight Innovation Exchange. So I am sure [laugh], you know, there was a great fit to your role, but why don’t you tell people about your role specifically and kind of give your bio, which you can do much better than I can, which would just be reading what we’ve shared.

Ritanbara: Sure. So I’ve been in the field of insights, innovation strategy. Let us say I’ve been in the field of using the intellectual cells of the brain to help businesses for a very long time — for 25, 26 years. I started my career as a quantitative researcher. So I am very familiar with Excel, which is now no longer used in favor of bigger data and more agile data, and worked with some of the key research agencies, the big ones, Kantar, Ipsos and Research International and Nielsen. And then I moved to the client side. So, first ten years of my career I’ve spent with agencies. And I think, personally, when I reflect back, I feel these were very useful, valuable, grounding gears of what I know as a researcher today. I think everything that I have built has been in—from those 10, 12 years of really hardcore fundamental research, which I would strongly advocate everybody else to also invest in if you have to do the long run in your career and to do it soundly and with rigor. I then moved to the client side. In the last 15 years, I have had three different experiences with three different organizations. I started with Telenor, which is a telecom agency. Following that, I have also worked with PepsiCo. And last 10, 11 years, I’ve been with Nestlé. In Nestlé, I’ve been in Switzerland, which is the headquarters for the last five years. And I’m currently, as you are well aware, doing a role of innovation. So this is an interesting role where the idea is to support the billionaire brands of the dairy business in terms of their next growth pipeline, their next big innovation, and to really handhold and make sure that the decisions made at this stage are truly strategic and across to the next frontier. So that’s where I am today, and happy to talk more on this subject—very interesting subject.

Karen: Yeah, I mean, for those of you who know, I’m from the northeast of the US in Connecticut, not very far from PepsiCo headquarters here in the US. And Nestlé also has some offices in Stanford, Connecticut. And I think that might be Nestlé Water or it was at some point. So I know those two organizations so well, and I think there is a lot of listeners who would be like, you know, way to go. I think the move from the supplier side to these very large organizations with such big, global brands is really commendable. How was that transition for you? I know you started at Telenor, but how was that transition getting into that client side?

Ritanbara: It was 15 years back, so I think I’ve forgotten the first few days and the first few weeks.

Karen: [laugh].

Ritanbara: [laugh] But if I reflect back, I think that lots of things change when you make that switch. The first thing is that I think your own status and what you do changes. So you move from being a generator of revenue to somebody that is actually an expense account for the company. And I think that there is a change in the way, therefore, that you look at budget and things like that. That’s at a very macro level. But from a personal growth perspective, I think the amount that you learn about what makes a business work and how complex it can be and how you actually need to embed—whether it is insight or it is intelligence or information or any kind of strategic thinking—in a way that the business can actually utilize it. I think this was a very sharp learning curve for me, which I’m sure it must be for others as well. I think the other thing is that, at least for me personally, and I don’t think this has changed dramatically, when you join from a supplier side, usually you’re focused on one type of work. Like, you know, you could be a quant researcher, or you could be doing more qual work, or you could be specialized in a particular space. But, typically, when you make that switch over, you are now looking at lots of different kinds of insights options, and you’re not a master of each of them. So the ability to still understand what a particular tool can deliver and how it will conjoined with another tool in order to develop and generate the information you’re looking for, I think that is a new muscle that you need to develop over a period of time. So I’d say this is the other one that you need to be—at least I needed to become much more agile with other spaces than what I had been originally trained on, and that was learning. And I think the third thing is that—the variety of the stakeholders. You know, you’re dealing with people who are at a different level of both understanding and appreciation of what you bring to the table and a different level of seniority all the time. And you’re juggling all of that while—you know, if you’re a senior researcher who’s joined, and if you’ve joined at a senior level, you have a team also that you need to coach and train to do that. So I think these three things stick out in my mind quite sharply.

Karen: Let’s talk a little bit about those stakeholders because you have joined at high levels, right? Pretty much the head of insights or the VP of insights sites at these organizations working up to, you know, kind of globally leading some of these initiatives are your stakeholders internally at the organization. You can talk about the current one that you’re at. So who do you serve with the work you do?

Ritanbara: I think the ultimate stakeholder for any insights person is a business owner, is somebody who is trying to grow the business. It really doesn’t depend in which corner of that system, that ecosystem you sit at. You know, you could be sitting, as I am right now, with an R&D setup, or you could be sitting with a sales setup, or you could be sitting with a category setup. It doesn’t matter where you sit. The purpose of the organization is what your work is expected to be aligned to and to deliver to. And that is usually growth. And the custodians of growth are the business owners, the brand owners, the category owners. So I think those are the key people. And indeed, for me, successful insight is when you’ve been able to really sharply contribute to that growth in a way that has made the business grow in the right direction more sustainably and where you eased the work of the business owner in order to be able to enable that person to do their job better.

Karen: Yeah, it’s interesting. A few conversations that I’ve had recently with other people who are leading divisions at large CPG companies, we’ve talked about the importance of addressing those business challenges and being strategic thinkers and, you know, kind of the shift in the role of somebody who is in the insight space to really becoming somebody who is a, you know, strategic, business-minded thinker. Have you seen that kind of growth of, you know, your role throughout these, say, 15 years since you’ve been on the client side, where you are being charged more and more with being a strategic thinker, or has it been consistent for you kind of throughout that journey?

Ritanbara: I think it has definitely grown, but I think it is also a question of how you want to grow your own career and your own stature in the organization. So it’s something that insights people, or anybody who is in this domain of insights intelligence strategy can decide to leverage. I think all businesses are looking for solid, sound information and validation and conviction, you know, with which they need to grow. So, if you approach them with trying to address their business problems from this insights and analytics ability in a very sound way, they will lean on you because they need you. They are in need. So it all depends on how you want to shape your conversation so that they need you even more and even more. Like, in one of my last—my earlier roles, the organization that I joined in, insights in Nestlé in South Asia, I joined a team of—when I joined, there was a team of just three people. When I left, there was a team of 15 people. So, you know, we know that headcount is not easy to get, but the reason we were able to grow that team is because, clearly, we were delivering the insight and we were doing it in a way that was efficient and agile for the business. So there was a willingness to invest in something which is, as I said, an expense account for the company at the end. So I think there is a need for it. It’s a question of how well you want to grow into that need and make yourself indispensable.

Karen: I love that. And I love thinking about, you know, being so good that they—that you are supported in wanting to grow your headcount for your team. Because I know a lot of researchers do struggle with that. So do you have any tips for people who might be, you know, in roles on the brand side of things, wanting to grow their team? Any pointers you can give, lessons that you’ve learned, that show the value that you provide, for example?

Ritanbara: I think the growth of the team is a result of the work you do. So you don’t start by saying I want to grow the team. You start by doing the work. And the more you deliver to that work and there is hunger and demand for more, then you say, well, you know, if you want more of this, then I’ll probably need more help. There’s only that much I can do today. So I think that it is you—just like, as a business owner, you generate demand with consumers. I feel that even insights and innovation people—insight innovation support people need to generate that same demand for their services within the organization. And the more you’re able to fulfill met and unmet needs of your stakeholders, the more you have traction for your own needs and your, you know, own concerns of growing or expanding or being able to be, you know, more agile [laugh].

Karen: So great. I mean, I just love thinking about that. So, you know, the researchers listening are like, oh, I get that. Right [laugh]? How much research do we do that explores met and unmet needs? So it’s really interesting to put that lens over your work internally. Thank you for sharing that. Let’s get into kind of innovation in general. So you mentioned that you sit with the R&D team, for example. So talk to us a little bit about how your team operates, how they inform the R&D team, and how you kind of do what you do to inspire them or inform their efforts.

Ritanbara: I think there are two parts to this. If you look at innovation, innovation can come out of the business having an objective, which is that, you now, it could be that I have—I’ve got a brand, and I want to target a new consumption segment or a new consumption moment or a new geography, and therefore, you know, I need a new kind of product, or I need a new kind of flavor or whatever it is, you know. It may stem or originate from business ambitions. It can stem or originate from a new consumer need that has been tapped by the business in the work they are doing. So it could be a consumer out or a business out opportunity. Equally, it can also be something that develops out of a product. So there are people who are constantly working on product. There are people who are experimenting. It’s almost like a chef in a kitchen. You know, you’ve got all these ingredients, and you’ve got all these options. Not everything is something that may be demanded by your family, but as you start, you know, experimenting, you come up with something. So I feel that the role that a good innovation team can play is to be able to embed that kind of innovation, which is product out, in a way that makes the commercial owners of the business understand it, value it, and place it in the right context so that it actually grows the category or the business for them. And equally, on the other side, if there is something that has emerged from a consumer context, how can you take that, translate it into what needs to be done at the product end in order to be able to, again, deliver to that growth? So I think that growth is the holy grail, but you can approach it in different ways. And I do believe that sometimes in big organizations, we undervalue what comes out of the product. We feel that, oh, you know, they don’t know the consumer or they don’t know the market, which may be true, but they know the product really well. And, you know, clever articulation, contextualization of the product in the right consumption moment with the right price and the right, you know, geography, could actually give that lease of life or, you know, or leap of growth that the business is looking for.

Karen: When we talk about innovation in general, so much of what I think is, you know, the creative component, the creative—and even thinking about, you know, using the chef analogy with ingredients and certainly for a food or beverage based CPG company, you know, there’s going to be—there’s going to be culinary input. So there is some creativity towards it, right, which is like the work of innovation. Yet what you’re doing is really driving some of that thinking with insights. What’s the type of insight work that you’re doing? I know you have a background in quant. We kind of shared that. But are you doing qualitative? Are you studying data or shopper data? Like, talk to me about the pool of information that informs the work you’re doing.

Ritanbara: I think there’s a lot that we are looking at, and I believe that in order to be able to be sharp, you do need to do all that. You need to tap into multiple sources, and those multiple sources are both internal and external. So externally, I don’t think this will come as new news to any listener. You know, we look at the trends. We look at what’s happening in the marketplace. We look at what’s happening with new product launches. We look at what’s happening in terms of our own growth of category and cross-category play. So there’s a lot of stuff that is available, and it’s becoming more and more available. So I don’t think there is a lack or shortage of information. There is definitely a lack and shortage of ability to pick the right information and to stitch it in the right way. So I think I continuously see that as a challenge across the industry of insights people, as well as in my own domain and my own team. How do you ensure that when you are, you know, putting together that combination, you’ve actually picked the right flowers in the garden to make the right bouquets, so to speak, because there are so many flowers. So how—you need to pick. But you do need to pick flowers, and you need to pick multiple flowers. You know, you just can’t have red flowers and think that it’s going to work. So I think that is part of that. Then, you know, from a—I think from a skill perspective, knowing the time when to ask the consumer and when not to ask the consumer and how to ask the consumer. I remember, you know, when we were in research, we were often told this one line that, you know, Henry Ford said that if I had gone and asked consumers what is it that they want, they would have told me we want a faster horse. But, you know, this was not the right question to ask, and therefore, you know, this would not have helped me. And therefore, research doesn’t count with consumers. But I feel that is not even the right question to ask the consumer. The right question to ask the consumer in 1920 or whenever the cars were built is to say what are your needs and to understand the consumer’s need. The consumer’s need is faster transportation. There is a limit to which the horse can run fast, and, therefore, the manufacturer invents the car. So I think this whole question of knowing what is the question to ask and how far can you push that conversation. But then what should I pick out of it in order for me to actually develop a solution? I think the biggest trick lies there, and that is always the biggest challenge. Many times when we are either interrogating available data or we are talking to consumers, we are very superficial. We will ask questions like this, “Do you need a faster horse?” And then somebody will say yes, and somebody will say no. But what we really need to ask is the deep, underlying need, and find the solution that will meet the consumer in a convenient, acceptable, whatever, right price and everything.

Karen: How large of a team are you currently operating with in your division?

Ritanbara: It is across three geographies, and it’s a large team of more than, I think, close to 15 people. Yeah.

Karen: So, you know, if you think about those individuals, are they all sort of trained in that kind of thinking to, you know, not just ask, as any researcher would, to get to the needs and the unmet needs, but are they trained in that next level to take that to ideas to put forward? Or do you just really pass the insights on, and then, you know, your R&D team kind of does some ideating, for example, of how might we solve this challenge? So kind of who does the solution generating, I think, is my question.

Ritanbara: I think the initial insighting work is all done by us. But, you know, when it comes to once we have articulated the business issue, or let us say we have articulated possible roots from an insight perspective, we put all that data together. We’ve stitched it. We kind of—you know, we got it into a certain platform where people can relate to it, then you cannot just depend on people within the team. Then you need to involve—in fact, sometimes even before that, you need to involve the people who will actually work on that information in order to develop the solution or the people who are going to finally commercialize that solution. So it has to be cross-functional. And there is very rich input that comes in from the cross-functional people as well because then they approach it from their angle. It’s a bit like saying that you’re walking towards a building, but whichever side you start walking towards with, you see that first, and sometimes somebody else doesn’t see that. But, you know, coming together and the cross-fertilization produces its own sense of richness, which is pretty invaluable if you’re coming up with some, you know, groundbreaking innovation.

Karen: Yeah, and I think when it comes to that sort of—just innovation in general, like I said, I have a—you know, this was a large part of my background as a researcher before I joined Greenbook, when I was just, you know, a researcher, not just a researcher, but I was doing that work primarily. So much of it was stimuli everywhere. If I was going into an ideation session with some of the teams I was working on, it was like—it’s like, let’s bring in the trend data. Let’s do out and do food tours. You know, let’s look at previous research data and, you know, pull it all together, because what you’re hoping for is kind of those nuggets of—nuggets of inspiration, like something that just triggers the thought for people to start to connect dots. And I think that’s one of the things that excites me about the type of work that you do is, like, the idea can come from almost anywhere, but you have to kind of collect all of that information and then share it. So anything that you do that you think is either unique or, you know, really kind of critical in that work of pulling it all together for people?

Ritanbara: I’ll answer that question, but I just want to mention something on when you talked about saying the idea can come from anywhere. We do all of this work. And I still remember that once I was in a consumer’s house and we were looking at what mothers prepare for their kids for their lunch in school. And I was speaking to this lady who was working in her kitchen, and she was constantly talking and also cooking. And she said something. And she said—she was making something which I thought was a little bit complex, so I just complimented her. And I said, you know, “That really looks amazing, and I’m really impressed you can do that on your own.” And she said that, “Well, you know, the thing is, I used to give my daughter whatever some very basic kind of lunchbox often. And one day she came and told me that, you know, ‘I’m sometimes ashamed to open my lunchbox in front of my friends because it’s just the same old boring stuff every day.’“ And she said, “You know, when she told me that, it was a jolt for me, and that’s when I got involved in the lunchbox.” I went back and told the marketing team and the concerned people and everything about this. And suddenly this whole aspect of how the homemaker or the caregiver can shine through the lunchbox became a marketing platform that people worked on. So it can be a lot of research, but it can also be sparked by a single conversation somewhere.

Karen: Yeah. And I love that example because going into homes, like, we cannot underestimate—

Ritanbara: Yeah.

Karen: —or undervalue the importance of going into homes or going into the place where products are being kind of created for. I did a great ethnography project at one point in the food service business, and it was going into the back of the house at restaurants. And seeing firsthand how chefs and their kitchen staff solved packaging problems was the most eye opening thing we had ever seen. I mean, some of it was cringe worthy, for lack of a better word, because we were like, oh, I don’t know if that solution is safe [laugh]. You know, so we saw plenty of that. But also just the things that they have to come up with to solve their problems on the spot was such great fodder for ideation. And, you know, we brought back video footage of look what this person did to make sure that this—they didn’t spill here. Or look what this person did to make sure they got every last drop out of this bottle, or whatever it was. It’s just so inspiring when you get into people’s homes because those small little micro moments of a research project don’t even have to be—they don’t have to be quantifiable, right? They just have to hit that button that says, oh, yes, this is something that we can look into. It’s my favorite part of research.

Ritanbara: No, absolutely. I mean, I remember I was once in a consumer household where there was some packet and that it gets just slipping out of that consumer’s hand. And I was like, you know, we’re talking about packaging. Just look at this experience over here.

Karen: Right? Right.

Ritanbara: In fact, some, some of the beverage manufacturers, they have this rule that when you open the bottle, it should open with one twist, and at the same time, it should be fully, you know, sealed when you do—when it is bought. And there are times when people are struggling with it, and they’re not opening. So these things, they stick in your mind [laugh].

Karen: Yeah, I know, it’s so fun. I know. It just reminds me also of work that I had done at one point. Look, I’m also talking as a, you know, as a woman who raised children—like the juice packs with the straw and stuff and, like, watching women, like, and kids struggle to get that straw in it. And it wasn’t a packaging project that I was working on at the time, but I was thinking, someone really has to solve for this. Anyway, packaging work is a whole different conversation, right, because it’s like—[laugh] it’s the most frustrating thing.

Ritanbara: [laugh] Going back to your question, in terms of how we go about it, I think that the first thing is to scope, you know, your boundaries.

Karen: Yep.

Ritanbara: Because, as I said, there is so much of data and there’s no limit—but ensuring that you’ve scoped it well, either from a geography point of view. So getting the scope of the business question well and then scoping what is the kind of data you would need, at least from an access point of view, in order to start your work. The other bit is in terms of actually investigating each piece of that data well. So it’s a bit like a human body. You know, you get the blood report, but that doesn’t mean the blood report by itself is enough. You may still need some radiology. You may need some CAT scans. So it isn’t one aspect that can find—that can give you the solution. And then you don’t need everybody trained in everything. You do need somebody who understands the lab report, and then you need another person who is the expert on the path report and maybe another one who is an expert on the radiology bit. So I think that if you have the right experts in the team and then they integrate and they will—you will find that the definition of the problem or the possible solutions is all ground in very solid thinking. And I think particularly for innovation—because, you know, there is so much of innovation that happens. Shelves are crowded with it. Consumers go in. They’re looking for simplicity. They don’t want their lives to be more complex than they already are. So I think understanding how the consumer is going to approach it and making sure that your innovation is really, really grounded. I think there’s a lot that is said about consumer centricity, but many times when you look at concepts that are being developed, they are not consumer centric. They are very manufacturer centric. They have approached it all by some technology that exists somewhere. So I think making sure that’s done that way and then challenging back to stakeholders and saying but, you know, this isn’t consumer centric. You know, it’s coming out of that same wallet. You know, if—you’re providing nutrition like this, but they’re already providing nutrition through another way. I mean, I can give you an example from my own experience. My husband was insisting that my daughter eats egg every day because he said it’s a rich source of protein. And then she started taking protein bars to school, and he stopped insisting that she eats egg. Look at the cross category damage to egg that has happened as an industry. Suddenly egg has been displaced by a bar. So I think understanding the fact that it is one stomach, one wallet, and there are different ways to provide that same benefit. And consumers are, you know, subject to all of that information is important. So I think knowing that and looking at it from that angle and being humble in what you are trying to say and convey to the consumer can get you far. Otherwise, you approach it with a sense of arrogance, saying, I’m this big brand. I’m coming out with the next innovation. You know, I’m going to price it above competition. I’m going to be, you know, what I am, and you guys come and buy it. I don’t think it works. And I think there are plenty of failures on the battlefield.

Karen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you know, as you were just talking, I was thinking specifically about your—you know, you happen to work in a dairy category, and I was thinking about dairy needs, and non-dairy needs and, you know, letting my mind kind of think about that. How do you kind of stay ahead or, or even more than that, anticipate kind of the future of what’s happening in that trend? Like the trend—the trend from dairy to non-dairy or alternative dairy. How do you navigate that space? Is there—are there things that you’re doing specifically, or is it kind of just all of what we’ve been talking about?

Ritanbara: I think we’re mapping the trends far more sharply than we were. We already as a big company—and I’m sure all big organizations are doing this, buy into trend reports, scan trend reports, look at what’s available from our suppliers and partners. But I think with the advent of the Internet and, you know, the power of the Internet becoming more and more potent as we go, there is the possibility of tracking these trends far more sharply. We have subscribed to some services where we are in a position to identify which are the trends which are on the rise. And I think, again, with the full realization on how you want to approach it. Do you want to approach it with your category angle or a cross-category hat? That is the choice you need to make, and you can make that as you go along. But there is enough data that can now tell you that this particular trend is maturing or declining or fading, or this particular trend is growing. And when it is growing, what is it growing about? I mean, what are the kind of benefits consumers talk about? What are the ingredients that are being spoken about in this trend? What are the sub trends that consumers speak? Or what is the language that is becoming more and more prevalent? And the trend could be about a pack. It could be about a benefit. If it’s a benefit, it could be a benefit that could be served by multiple categories. Or it could be about a process, like fermentation is a process. But sometimes fermentation can become the big conversation while everything else becomes—even though the ultimate benefit is not what fermentation, but consumers are caught by the imagination of fermentation or cold pressed juice or something. So I think there is a lot that we are now subscribing to, which is making our interaction and the pick of the trends more choiceful.

Karen: Yeah, it’s such interesting work and also, you know, like, critical work. It’s very different. Talking to somebody like yourself is very different from talking to somebody who, you know, works in the insights, functions, kind of serving the marketing and communications and advertising. It’s such different work. So I am fascinated by the level of strategic thinking that has to go into the work that you do. So thank you for sharing all that. With that hat on, what are some of the things that you are mindful of for what we always say, you know, at Green Book is like the future of insights? Like, what do you see coming down the pike for the work that you’re doing? Is there, you know, new methodologies that you know, you need to embrace or lean into or educate your team on, or skills that you think you need to, you know, make sure you’re nurturing within your team to better prepare people for the future? What are your thoughts on that?

Ritanbara: I think this conversation would be incomplete if we didn’t use the word AI. So I have to say that very fast [laugh].

Karen: Yeah, [laugh].

Ritanbara: Yeah. I think suffice it to say, whether it is AI today, or the next version of AI tomorrow, being abreast with all the tools or all the enablements, so to speak, that exists within the industry is critical. I have to say that many times we don’t—one doesn’t even have to work too hard to stay abreast because you have partners, suppliers reaching out to you to say, this is possible; that is possible. So it’s just a question of one’s own willingness and learning ability and affinity for that conversation. So I think that being abreast with the new tools and constantly pushing yourself to try out these new tools, albeit in a small way or in a pilot method, can really ensure that you’re ahead of the game. I think that for the longest time there was traditional research and then there was this big buzz about data analytics. But acknowledging the fact that the business is neither buying research for the sake of research or analytics for the sake of analytics, they’re buying a solution. They want to know what to do. And therefore, for anybody in this field to be on top of the integration of technology and analytics with the rigor of traditional research is critical. I don’t think people enjoy looking at big spreadsheets. They enjoy listening to a story. They enjoy listening to what they should do. So I also feel there’s a big gap and a big need to simplify our language when we are coming to the business with solutions, just like I think television and entertainment has simplified their delivery in ways that we never thought imaginable. I think we need to take more inspiration from them in order to simplify the solution, even though the backend might be very complex, very deep and very, very dense. But as good insights professionals, we should be ahead of the game in order to be able to do all that backend but convey it very simply.

Karen: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing. Is there anything, before we wrap that I didn’t ask you that you were really hoping that I would? Because I don’t want to leave without you [laugh] sharing something that you’re like I really hoped we had talked about that.

Ritanbara: I think we’ve had a very rich conversation. I think what we haven’t talked about is your perspective on how things are moving. So I wouldn’t mind hearing a little bit of that as well because you talk to so many professionals.

Karen: Oh, that’s [laugh]… You know, it’s really interesting. I’m personally, you know, obviously—obviously AI, so I’m glad you went there at the end. I think we’ve shifted to a time when people—and we actually have received this feedback. So it’s kind of an informed opinion that I have right now that people really want to know, like, okay, show me the use cases for AI. Like, you know, I’m done trying to figure out if I should lean in because it’s here; it exists. So how can I incorporate it in a way that’s safe and has integrity but will also add value? So I think that certainly that’s, you know, a big part of the conversation. I think there’s also that shift. You know, you mentioned data and analytics, and I have also talked to enough people right now where the shift really is using it all: using all of the input, the data, the analytics. And by data, I mean the quantitative information, the qualitative information, you know, the work of in homes, the work of interviews with the work of surveys, like, all coming together to inform people who are driving business decision-making like not ever before to do exactly what you’re saying. So you’re—to me, you’re speaking to the exact state that we are in in the industry, which is the most key stakeholder is really the business owner or the one responsible for it all. And I love that insights is directly informing that at this point. It seems like we’ve gone from wanting a seat at the table to being, like, the right hand to the person in charge almost, and I love seeing that.

Ritanbara: Yeah, I fully align with that. And, yeah, so net—net, we are positive [laugh].

Karen: Yeah, [laugh] exactly, exactly. Go—you know, for me, it’s like—it’s very empowering for people in the industry. I really believe that this is just a great time to be a researcher. Even though it’s changing, even though things are in flux with AI, I think that just a really important time, and I just think that both human and analytical insight is incredibly important right now and being recognized for being important. So, anyway, thank you so much.

Ritanbara: Thank you.

Karen: You know, really, that’s—I don’t want to take up too much more of your time and our listeners. I’m so grateful for that. So, any final words of wisdom or advice before we wrap?

Ritanbara: I think we should approach and embrace change always with a positive spirit. I was telling someone the other day that I was doing this analysis once on—in fact, I was writing a paper for somebody, and they were talking about how Socrates, at one point in time, had a lot of negativity to say about writing. When they started writing down everything, Socrates said, “This is the end of intelligence because people will stop memorizing things now that the pen has been invented.” So I think there’s this natural hesitation to sometimes look at an invention. The same thing happened with telephone. When the telephone was invented, people thought that they will no longer be personal connections. But at the end of the day, we use those inventions and we become cleverer and cleverer, and it’s usually to the better of our most humanity. So no point in being scared [laugh]. No need to be scared.

Karen: I love that so much. That’s such a good framing for all of it, you know, and I could take it even further. You know, a lot of people I have heard, you know, saying things like, oh, and now with texting, there’s another generation that they’re not going to be connected. And maybe there’s been some bumps along the way, but I find myself working very hard to connect with my children at a different—my adult children at a different level if all we’re doing in a given day is texting. But the reality is, is when I was early in my twenties, I was not in touch with my family regularly. I would have a phone call maybe once a week when I was away at college.

Ritanbara: Yeah. Exactly [laugh].

Karen: My children will text me almost daily, so I have actually closer communication with them if I’ve adapted to their ways. It wasn’t the end of our connection, so—

Ritanbara: No. It built.

Karen: It built. So I love that example. Thank you so much for sharing it. And, yeah, certainly, you know, writing things down did not affect our intelligence for—in the negative way. So…

Ritanbara: [laugh].

Karen: Anyway, that’s our show for today. Thank you so much for being here.

Ritanbara: Thank you, Karen. It was absolutely delightful to speak to you.

Karen: You as well. You as well. And also thank you to our producer, Natalie Pusch. Thank you, Nat. Thank you to our editor, Big Bad Audio. We love what you do for us, and we are so grateful. And, of course, to our listeners, thank you for tuning in week after week. It’s just a pleasure to serve you with these conversations. So until next time, bye-bye, everybody.